Chuck: online marketing and strategy at StartupNation

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Chuck

Ann Arbor, MI
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By Chuck 1026 Days Ago
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or so this article seems to imply. Yahoo has been relatively forthcoming about their gaffes with launching their new Panama system, and some other missteps along the way. But have they really jumped the shark?

Personally I am in a Google habit, and haven`t actively assessed the others against Google results recently, but as I have a relatively good handle on what goes into determining who attains top spots in search results, I`m inclined to step back and reevaluate at some point.

How about you - stuck with one engine for some time? Starting to get disenchanted with one or the other? And if you combine a few in your search activities, who gets the nod for which types of searches?
By Rich 1026 Days Ago
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google, every time.

it`s interesting, but i was in a meeting yesterday in Santa Monica with a very sophisticated group of web gurus, and we all agreed, one of the most important skills someone can have today in business is to be able to search the web effectively. i totally buy it. googling for me is gold.
By theswaynester 1026 Days Ago
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Part google. Part yahoo. All crazy.
The Swaynester.
By Chuck 1026 Days Ago
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one of the most important skills someone can have today in business is to be able to search the web effectively.

Amen Rich, couldn`t agree more. There`s too much useful information out there for you to have trouble finding it, and google certainly cuts through a lot of the clutter.

I`m still hoping to hear from some of you who are questioning your loyalty - too much irrelevant junk in your search results lately?

And swayne - for what do you use yahoo and what do you use google?
By Joel 1026 Days Ago
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I`m now 100% Google & have been for years. But Suzanne is mostly AltaVista Advanced Search because she still loves to use her free Boolean box expressions. For a serious researcher, she claims it can`t be beat.
By Degrees 1026 Days Ago
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When Safari came out it had google built into the software. Because of the speed of Safari and the speed of google . . . all the other searches were a distant 2nd
By ElidS 1026 Days Ago
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I use Google to search for general and technical information, but Yahoo for specific areas. I find that searching with Yahoo when shopping often gives more relevant sites and by far better organized than Google. The same is true when searching for certain types of news items, not all. IMO Yahoo is also better when searching for entertainment related sites.

As I write this it occurs to me that I often use Yahoo more for social or personal searches, but Google for strictly business results.
By Chuck 1026 Days Ago
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Thanks for the input ElidS - you mentioned why Yahoo was superior when it came to non-business searches, just curious how Google outshines Yahoo when it comes to business-related searches? Are the Yahoo searches notably less relevant? Does their organizational strength turn into a weakness with those types of searches.
By Chuck 1026 Days Ago
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Are there no MSN or Ask loyalists out there??
By wartimethingscom 1026 Days Ago
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I don`t particularly care for MSN as they are fall behinds in my opinion.

Once I started concentrating my efforts to place my business on the web, I started looking at all of the options, tools, and other helpful items which could help me in my quest. Google provided it all. Thus they have my loyalty.

I`ve gone Google and I ain`t going back to the others!!!!!!!!!

Dan
By ElidS 1026 Days Ago
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just curious how Google outshines Yahoo when it comes to business-related searches? Are the Yahoo searches notably less relevant?

:-)

Looks like I may need to re-evaluate what I’m doing with search engines, haven’t done that in a while....

In order to give an example of what I was talking about I went to Google and Yahoo, on both search engines I typed ‘Import duties footwear’ a general search seeking info on tax duties at customs for footwear (without the quotes). As it turns out Google turns up no useful information on the subject until the fifth page were it finally shows up in a relevant ad that states “FedEx Trade Networks Advisory services, including C-TPAT and global duty & tax information. www.fedex.com” On Yahoo however, it shows up on the first page, also on a paid advertisement with “Are You Following Proper Import Controls www.ExportCompliance.com - Online tool helps determine the import requirements for your products.” The search was purposely left ambiguous to test the engine’s capabilities.

So... it looks like I may need to re-evaluate Yahoo vs Google searching... Interesting, guess I’ll be doing some double searching in the near future. Thanx for posting this.
By stonesledge 1026 Days Ago
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Gotta be Google!I like the search options.
By ujeans 1026 Days Ago
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So good, so great, so Google!
By onlineeater 1026 Days Ago
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I use mostly Google for searches but Yahoo for finance, earnings reports. Another one I use for technology updates and www.cnet.com. I do like to look at all the new gadgets coming out and www.cnet.com does a great job evaluating and offering places to buy if you are looking to do so online.
By Chuck 1025 Days Ago
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So... it looks like I may need to re-evaluate Yahoo vs Google searching... Interesting, guess I’ll be doing some double searching in the near future. Thanx for posting this.

ElidS - this is great information, thanks for sharing it - exactly the type of thing I`m wondering about going forward; I`m going to start running side by side comparisons. Just wish I liked the Yahoo toolbar more than I do (hate that thing compared to Google).
By Chuck 1025 Days Ago
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I use mostly Google for searches but Yahoo for finance, earnings reports. Another one I use for technology updates and www.cnet.com. I do like to look at all the new gadgets coming out and www.cnet.com does a great job evaluating and offering places to buy if you are looking to do so online.

I hear you onlineeater, I love specialized search tools, but that seemed like to much to bite off with this topic (start big and then narrow, just like a search ) - when you start digging further you find people`s search habits can be very diverse, especially when you touch on shopping search, local search, etc.
By Chuck 1025 Days Ago
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To add some context to this discussion, here`s a data point on overall search share from hitslink (estimates from others vary from this of course, but it`s a decent approximation).

Check out the search share trends, definitely a downer for those at Yahoo, even more so for MSN.
By ElidS 1024 Days Ago
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Why do they list Yahoo as `Yahoo websites` are they measuring something other than the percentage of searches for each search engine?

I like the approach www.wikiseek.com has, as you type it suggests the subjects for you to choose. For instance I search for `Market Share` (no quotes) you get a bunch of results plus a list of subjects that you could be searching for, on the next window I add browser and get all the info on `web browser` market share available.

wikiseek only lists the sites that are mentioned on articles in wikipedia, and since that is a community moderated environment you pretty much have the certainty of quality returns. A lot of the net is left out so it is not for everything... yet. ;-)
By Chuck 1023 Days Ago
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I believe they`re tallying searches that occur across every single property, all of which have search functionality, but that may not run through or send back the same results as the standard Yahoo search.
By technoglyph 1020 Days Ago
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I must admit I use google 90% of the time at least with Yahoo and Ask distant seconds. Yahoo on the other hand has tools I use everyday from yahoo groups to keyword analysis. I use Yahoo`s 360 to organize my feeds and for blog pinging and I still use Yahoo e-mail more out of habit than anything else. Yahoo questions is also worth a look as a marketing tool.

Google doesn’t always get it right either, I use Linkedin for networking not Google`s Okurt.

Yahoo is a long way from dead but they need some radical changes in some of their offerings.

Anyway that`s my two pence.
By Kathy 1020 Days Ago
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I use Google 100% of the time for both business and personal. I feel at times you have to be creative in what you put in the search box but it really works well for me.

I agree with technoglyph as far as Yahoo not being dead but it isn`t doing well. I keep my yahoo email but that may go soon. I get so much spam there.

Kathy
By SolidGrnd 1019 Days Ago
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Funny...I have found myself to be a pretty steady Yahoo user on my first go through. Being that my nonprofit focuses on my ability to do quality research online...I am on all of them at some time or another and often for the same search...but I find I hit Yahoo first and compare from the others.

I like Ask for when I have NO EARTHLY idea how to begin searching for a topic or idea I have in my mind...things that for whatever reason I can`t narrow (automatically) to a few keywords and feel I need to ASK the question.

I personally am not in love with any of them really. I find that often switching back and forth I find some things on one that I didn`t find on the others...or vice versa. Not to mention...I think your mind gets use to the organizational style of one site over the other...like me and Yahoo. I personally wouldn`t say it was any less or more of a site than the others. I think maybe Google has just become more used because it is better marketed. I mean really...who doesn`t "Google" something. I use Yahoo and I STILL say I am going to Google it. Nobody ever says "I am going to go Yahoo it!". Like Mapquest...you Mapquest it...you don`t Yahoo Map it. Of course...anymore...even mapquest has been pushed out by Googling (hahahah...sounds like something sexual...hmmm...wonder if that is why everyone likes it so much....Freudian maybe).

Anyway...I just think it is a bit of preference...and good marketing that has put Google at the top of the list...and yes...of course...as they become more popular they ultimately receive more tie-ins with sites and such...which makes their search results more effective. All relative I think.

Just my humble opinion.
By nhgnikole 1018 Days Ago
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I was actually at a meeting at Yahoo! recently, an alumni thing, to discuss some of their features. And I think the model of the new services that Yahoo! is providing is important in many ways.

To be honest, I think the search engine is dying. I think that the results I get on Google have become so unsatisfactory that half the time, it is not worth using anymore. I voted for Google simply because I use Firefox, and the Google search box is included in the top of my browser. Searching for common things has become a huge joke, because the result are skewed and purchased to the point where the information that is displayed is no longer relevant anymore.

I`m all for it, really. I say death to the meta tag!

I`m actually going to completely lay low on search engines for a while. I may use Google`s tools for adding keywords to my site, but I`m not going to be concerned about rank anymore. Our concerns, as a development and marketing firm, are utilizing the new tools of "web 2.0" to create a better and more rewarding user experience. (Yes, it`s probably just a matter of time before someone starts falsely exploiting that as well, but hopefully the technology will stay ahead of them.) I am always torn between the goal of helping promote clients and the ideal of not breaking the way search engines were SUPPOSED to work before 50,000 "WE`LL RANK YOU #1!!!" sites popped up.

In any case, I feel that places like Wikipedia, About.com, Squidoo and others are providing a much more meaningful web experience. I hope they catch on with larger appeal and take down the whole notion of search engines ... and hopefully that shift will create a correction in the indexing of the search engines, bringing us back to an earlier (and more meaningful) time on Google and Yahoo!
By Chuck 1018 Days Ago
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It`s a good point NHG - I`m not sure I`m ready to sound the death knell for search engines just yet; perhaps for the current, stagnant incarnation, but a centralized search tool of some sort is always going to be of use online. The alternative is a vast array of niche tools - and regardless of how good a user experience is created, there`s still aggregation of information that has to take place.

And sadly yes, I would agree that as soon as something else moves up as a more attractive and viable tool it`s going to start undergoing the same `gaming` and other tactics that have led to watering down of quality SERPs in the classic engines. Wikipedia is already facing this, which is probably why their creator has moved on to his own user-powered search engine.
By gdernie 1018 Days Ago
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My favorite is GOOGLE, but i like to use other search engines to test my website.
By Chuck 1018 Days Ago
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i like to use other search engines to test my website.

Test in what way? Just curious what sort of tests you mean.
By beautifulpetunia 1017 Days Ago
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Google is definately the golden rule for serious searching, but for my news, weather, horoscope & fodder I use iwon.com for the same reason I still lick my Publishers Clearinghouse Stamps, even if it is virtually, to renew my subscription to Parents Magazine

yay sweepstakes!
By entreprenerd 1017 Days Ago
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I`ve been using Google almost exclusively for a couple of years now. I also advertise on Google, via Adwords. If I can`t find something on Google then I use Mamma or Dogpile or Alltheweb because they search multiple search engines.
By technoglyph 1017 Days Ago
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Dog pile is good and I add searches with the meta search engines for completeness, but when I`m doing research the full google search syntax and Boolean options seem to be the best out there along with the government and scholar searches. I tend to use them a lot. For general factual info I`m going more and more to Wikipedia.
I guess options are broadening but I think Google`ll remain on top for a while and since they`re spending big on R&D it could be a long while.

Tom

Lifrline Alliance
technoglyph2007-1-26 20:56:44
By CraigL 1016 Days Ago
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I don`t like to stay locked into a rut, so every so often I`ll use Yahoo! or Ask, but almost never MSN. Repeatedly, Google is simple and returns what I`m searching for. I loved Alta Vista, and their downloadable drive indexing-viewer was fantastic (reminded me of Lotus Magellan). Then that pretty much went away.... :-(

I think Yahoo! has a better crawling system for their business or shopping areas, but then, an awful lot of their products end up found by Google as well.

We did see that Yahoo, I think, crawls standard eBay auctions, where Google doesn`t, but I can`t prove that. Yahoo! images update more often, but their display system sucks totally.

Over and over, I end up back on Google simply because it`s clean, fast, efficient, and even with the ads and commercial results, just plain easier to use. (Ask does seem to be better for searching out technical questions, though.)

As for search engines in general dying out, that won`t happen. They`re the "card catalog" and indexing system for the Internet. Without search engines, nobody could use the Web. Just as without a card catalog, nobody would find any books in the library other than randomly.

We may find better ways to search, better ways to index, and perhaps, ways to boost real relevance rather than hyped relevance. That`ll be fine, but human nature being what it is, any time someone finds a way to do things, three people will find a way around it. :-)

CraigL2007-1-27 23:17:4
By Chuck 1014 Days Ago
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I hear many good things about Ask technology, and I`ve tried to get into it, but haven`t found the time to dedicate enough to it as of yet.

I`m with you on the dying search engines Craig, I think they`ll morph over time - personalization, the `semantic web` and social search will all impact their current form and function, but ultimately people will always need some sort of centralized source.
By jimelliott60 1013 Days Ago
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Yahoo! is my homepage but I search through a Google box sitting on top of my Explorer window. That reflects the search strength/content strategy of these companies.
By JulioF 1013 Days Ago
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Mostly Google here, with AltaVista as the runner-up.

In speaking with Yahoo`s Don Aydon late last year, it was obvious that Panama is Yahoo`s admitted attempt at the giant leap to close (and leapfrog) the gap with Google. Unfortunately, various issues have arisen, not the least of which is Google`s continued development in adding features and functionality which are exactly what the average biz owner wants, or should want.

As Mr. Satchel Paige said, "Don`t look back, someone may be gaining on you." From what I`ve observed, Google management have not exactly been straining their necks. Unless it`s in a forward and upward direction, that is.

80% - Google
15% - AltaVista
2% - Ask (has Jeeves` desk been moved to the basement, underneath the stairs? Is he still on the payroll?)
2% - Yahoo (they have a stake in AltaVista, don`t they?)
1% - Others
By skjm97 1013 Days Ago
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At this time to say "Google" as become a verb.

Remember when saying Xerox was a other way to make copy.

Yahoo or any other search company need overcome how Google has been woven the into American lingo.
By Chuck 1010 Days Ago
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Perhaps the next challenge to Google will come from a source we don`t even know about today - it`s happened in the past.
By CraigL 1009 Days Ago
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I wonder if we`ll see a search engine that works more along the lines of what "Ask Jeeves" tried, using plain-language queries? But this time, it would include evolving work in contextual processing, AI, and so forth.

Consider the problem of grammar checking by computer. Spelling is hard enough, where I can say, "Look what I sea" and be correct, but still be grammatically wrong. In the same way, Google is on a quest for "relevance." That`s a huge problem, and involved contextual processing. We haven`t got that far yet in computer analysis, but it`s coming.
By invesp 1009 Days Ago
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I rely on Google heavily. For my business, we also aim to get higher ranking for specific keywords with Google search engines (and other search engines as well, but if we get on Google, the rest will follow ;), which is actually quite tricky. However, we`ve managed to get from no listing at all, to about search query 20 for most of our keywords, which is pretty good in a span of 3 months. :)

I think Google will continue to surprise us with their advancements in technology. They came out of nowhere and wiped out the competition. I don`t believe they plan to go anytime soon!
By CraigL 1009 Days Ago
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Maybe it`s that I read a lot of sci-fi, but I don`t invest too much time getting stuck on any current technology. It`s there, use it, learn how to mess with it, and keep an eye out for what`s changing.

Great "lightbulb" joke on "Prairie Home Companion," today:

How many computer technicians does it take to change a lightbulb?

Why bother, the socket`s gonna be obsolete in 6 months!

:-D Point being that particularly in technology, whatever is the best of all possible things, it`ll be gone in a year or two, generally speaking. That`s a little different when it relates to software (Google being software), but not by all that much.

Think back to the people living in 1810. To them, at that time, in their context, they were living in an incredibly advanced society. Life was great, and nobody even considered any other way to live, other than what would be worse or less than what they had.

Today, we believe the same thing. But look back only 50 years to the 1960s. We look at those folks with a smile, laughing at how silly or primitive they lived. Pocket calculators, CDs and DVDs didn`t exist. Cellphones, notebook computers, handhelds, all were just make-believe fantasy.

Computers are in their infancy. We`ve barely reached a point where Windows is about to come to a wall. Linux and Open Source ideas are in the wings, but the whole concept of user-accessed operating systems is probably in its endgame. It`s like user-serviced car engines. They went along that way, then became so complex only a mechanic with computer tools can service a car.

It`s true that when programmers decide that end-users should be disallowed from getting into things like HTML source code, under the guise of "making things simpler," we end up in big trouble. But it`s like kitchens and cooking.

We don`t have to build our own stove and refrigerators, or forge our own pots and pans. We don`t care how they`re made, just that they can be purchased. But we do want the option of buying a prepackaged frozen dinner, or cooking something from scratch.

Nobody really cares how a computer works, but we`re forced to at the moment because it`s all so new and there aren`t any standards. As soon as we can reach some agreement, computers will go the rest of the way toward becoming a commodity. USING the computers will be what matters, and Search Engines will move toward that ease-of-use.

Until Netscape (what`s his name) developed HTML, all online information was in plain ASCII text. Nobody thought about it, nobody complained, and nobody wanted fonts and formatting. Then, one guy came up with a way to make online text into formatted designs and the Web jumped to the top of the heap. Remember, the World Wide Web is only one component of the overall Internet.

A much bigger, and looming problem for all of us, is the increasing inability of our kids to form queries.....to ask the right questions. That goes along with the decrease in critical thinking, and learning how to research solutions independently. So SEs could go in that direction, parsing questions and offering better-phrased questions before producing results.

Or the SEs could become speech-enabled, and ask qualifying questions. "What`s the capital of America?" And the SE would ask, "Do you want to know the center of government?" "Yes." And then go from there.

Additionally, SEs would be able to hold a chain of context. Following one result, the user would then only ask, "How many people live there?" Instead of it being treated as a totally open-ended question, the SE would "remember" that the previous query (not results) related to Washington D.C.

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online marketing and strategy at StartupNation

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I`ve been with StartupNation since May 2004. I work on our website strategy and all aspects of marketing StartupNation online.

Prior to joining StartupNation, I did the mba thing at the U of M(ichigan), and prior to that I spent four years doing the dot-com-bubble thing at amazon.

Glad to have you as part of the community, feel free to contact me any time with questions about StartupNation, our Community, online marketing, or Carolina basketball (look out in `08).

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