Forums: Discussions for entrepreneurs and small business.

I`d like to discuss what draws someone into the site? We`ve had an excellent thread of what pushes people away, under the "pet peeves" topic. So what pulls people in?

How important is the actual content interest to a site? Is there such a thing as "too many words," like when Mozart was told his music had "too many notes" (Amadeus, 1984) and people can only hear so many notes at a time?

If the content uses SEO writing to move up in the rankings, doesn`t that same redundant writing also then turn off the reader? Is white space important, or is it the organization of the words to produce a "curiosity factor?"

Do you think someone like Clive Cussler or Steven King or Sandra Brown would make a good writer for a Web site? Should we consider a Web site more like a novel, not like a commercial or sales brochure?

I`ve been having an interesting time following links to people who want a critique of their new Web site. At the same time, I`ve been learning the ins and outs of SEO writing, and the principles behind SEM (Search Engine Marketing). "TonerDesign" had an exceptional point about how a search engine (SE) is like a visually-impaired human being, and I got to thinking about that as well.

Throughout these forums people continually speak to the issue of using a Web site for marketing, drawing traffic, increasing sales, capturing information, and generally doing business. There`s a growing push toward the value of SEO, which indeed is valuable, and how proper optimization can move your site up in the results pages of a search engine....for right now!

Logically, if everyone uses SEO, then something else will determine your ranking. If all pages have been 100% optimized, then all pages return to "equal," per se, in terms of being found by the query. Is that all there is? Of course not, and many SuN members with Web expertise have spoken to the issues of number of clicks, time on a site, linked connections, and so forth.

It`s my thinking that the entire computer experience, at work or at home, is like "highway hypnosis." l`d guess most of us remember a situation where someone talked with us for half an hour while we were working on something or IMing, doing email, or some supposed simple task. We nodded, thought we understood, thought we paid attention, until we turned away from the machine. They asked, "So, what do you think?" And we realized we hadn`t a clue what the hell we`d just been discussing! Right?

I think it`s like a hypnotic state of both focused attention on the screen (not so much the content or thing we`re doing), and that wide-lens awareness of everything at once, like when we`re driving a car. It`s pretty much the generalized state of consciousness we`re in as we wander around in life, with a general sense of expectancy.

So how does a novelist capture the reader`s attention, then pull them into a book? The first sentence (or two or three) pretty much starts the "trance." Those sentences produce a question...simple, not a big mystery, but a question or puzzle. The reader wants to know the answer, or to see if they guessed correctly on the puzzle. It`s like if someone quickly says, "Hey...I gotta joke...wanna hear? It`s pretty hard to not say, "Sure...!"

But then comes the magic. We submerge into the first page of the book, getting to the end of it, and we have to choose to turn to page 2. Why? Good writers have just enough of a doubt as to what happens next that we say, "Oh hell...I can just read the next paragraph at any rate, I`ll just quickly turn the page. I wonder what comes next?"

At that moment, we have a shift in consciousness, then "wake up" into a whole new reality---the world of the story. Isn`t the Web site its own separate reality? Isn`t it like entering Willy Wonka`s Chocolate Factory, where all the rules and physics apply to that unique location in the world?

How much effort does it take in navigating, and what does "site navigation" actually mean? Consider eBay and Amazon, where you don`t have to think, to know what you`re doing. Then you suddenly realize (wake up inside the site) that you`re immersed in the site. Everywhere you look you can click, and it all explains exactly what will likely happen next. You just follow your curiosity.

I`m realizing how often I visit a site, but feel "too tired" or "overwhelmed" looking at all the tabs, menu items, click spots, and links. But I`m not! I`m not tired, and I`m not overwhelmed! I think it`s this "hypnosis" thing, where instead I`m relaxed! What feels like too much work is actually only my having to come out of a relaxed, unfocused viewing condition, to "work" at thinking.

I`m convinced that a good site captures the imagination, and works almost like a game. It pulls us in, then "somehow" flips us into a whole different reality---the world of only that particular site. What examples do you have of sites where you started only because of a  Google result, then ended up spending half an hour wandering around? Wikipedia comes to mind for me, only because I like trivia and strange facts.

I had a pleasant experience on a web site this morning.

I`m a new customer of PetMeds.com and receive email offers about once
every week or two. This morning, the offer was a discount of 15% on
everything. When I opened the email there was a personalized message
saying "Save on all Sadie`s pet products" and had a picture of a golden
retriever that looked just like Sadie. It took me a moment to realize that I
had filled out a short questionnaire when I originally signed up. With a
picture of our pooch and a message how could I not be drawn into the
site?

Examples of other sites that pull me in? If I`m interested in a product or
subject, it can happen easily -

Amazon - I usually check their site every Friday to see what the Friday
Sale is. Plus, I can browse forever looking at books. Their suggestions for
new titles based on what I`ve bought in the past has worked well. I`ve
discovered some great books that I would not have ordinarily looked at
before.

Epicurious - I can browse for hours looking at recipes. Member ratings on
recipes can usually be trusted. I like that I can search for a recipe and
then prioritize the search results based on member ratings.

iTunes - Love this site. Did you know they now sell games for your iPod
(shhh, don`t tell DD)? When I open this site a list comes up "Just for You",
a list of songs they recommend based on what I`ve bought in the past.
Being able to hear clips of songs before I buy has lead me to purchase
music by artist I`m unfamiliar with.

The sites that do this well, leave me feeling really good about a purchase.
Even though they may have suggested new items to me, I leave feeling
like I`ve "discovered" something new.
     

Craig,

Very good post.  I think too many get caught up in SEO writing styles.   Different types of websites need different writing styles, along with other characteristics to be successful.  When you are on an ecommerce site, and are researching a product for purchase, you want to see pictures of the products and good descriptions.  The better written the description, the more natural keywords that description is going to have. 

If I`m comparing between two sites with the same product, at the same price (along with other factors such as shipping cost, reputation, trust, etc.), I`m more inclined to purchase from the store with a better description and better pictures of the product.  Customers may be likely to spend a little more for a product if the descriptions and pictures convey trust and expertise.  The big companies spend lots of money on copywriting for the web, as well as catalogs.  I always picture the J. Pederman character on Seinfeld..  While his character was somewhat of a parody, there is a reason that story telling in product descriptions works.



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Steve James Fresh Yields- a new media firm, providing ecommerce solutions, redesign consulting, web design, email campaign management, and internet marketing.

SEO is meant more to get the pages into proper working order for search engines to find and index them, then push them higher into the rankings for whatever search phrases they are tuned to catch. But that`s all SEO really does, until you start fitting in all the other pieces of the SEO puzzle.

Search engines love information, so lots of information will push your site much higher.. but that can also work for the consumer, which is why search engines make this a high priority.

Having many incoming links (NOT exchange links, which are doing very little for a site these days) also helps, since search engines have decided that this means the site has value if these links are coming from "quality" sites (i.e., sites that also have something worthwhile to offer, like Startup Nation... ). A domain name that has been out there for a while counts more than the domain name that was just registered--a business that has longevity must be doing something right. These are the most obvious factors, but there are more.

Interestingly enough, one of the highest ranked (meaning there was incredible numbers of them) of incoming links was to Adobe, with a phrase something like "get the free reader"... all based on people needing Acrobat reader to read a lot of the documents online. Adobe did not allow anyone else to store Reader for download, so their site had a huge number of incoming links (and still does), from all kinds of sites. Not exactly a quality incoming link, but it certainly pushed their site ranking up based on volume--they were offering something no one else had.

Both CraigL and drdesigns bring up the most important factor in web design, though...so important someone actually wrote a book called by that name: "don`t make me think". I`ve been on sites where it`s a guessing game as to how to get to the next page. Fine if you want to conduct an "intelligence test", but for most people, they`ll leave before they bother with it. make it EASY for a customer to get around on your site and find what they want. And give them something worth visiting for.

All the sites named by CraigL and drdesigns above are good at personalizing the site toward the customer... in most cases they are doing it through technology because they have a huge customer base. On smaller sites, it can be done with personalized (not canned) answers to customer questions, good written content written on a one-to-one basis... and other ways. What do most people like about small town shopping?... the fact that they get personalized attention, treated as if they are royalty, because if the shopowner does not treat his/her customers that way, word gets around. Well, it gets around on the web, too... :-)... Small online businesses have that one great factor that the big businesses just do not have the time for--the chance to really get to know their customer in a personal way.

I still find it interesting that when past customers call me to do new work for them, they feel they have to identify themselves to me by the job we did together. I know every single one of my customers by name, I just have to hear that name and I know who they are and what we worked on together, going back almost 10 years. It always seems to surprise them in this very impersonal world, that I DO remember them. I count that as a strength, it makes them feel as valued as they really are.

Just to follow on Pat`s points, I think the common problem is the various misconceptions about what SEO implies for copy; there`s spammy copywriting with SEO in mind, which generates a lot of junk and creates a very negative impression of the discipline of SEO.  And then there`s good copywriting that takes SEO into account, that recognizes that pages, sections of a site, and the site as an overall entity have thematic elements that can be condensed (in most cases) to descriptive phrasing that many people use to find information.  Looking at it that way allows you to serve two masters, effectively creating copy that provides value to users, and gives it the best opportunity to be recognized as relevant by a search system.

-------------------------

chuck fuller

Hmm...this got me thinking, so I went to Epicurious (too much Flash, but a good site). Then I re-checked the sites I`ve mentioned, and realized something they all have in common---on-site searching!

EBay and Amazon are easiest to see, but Wikipedia and Zif-Davis began to bring it out. Then Pat brought up the point about small-towns and shopping in smaller stores. What do we do? By gosh, the reason we go to the local liquor store instead of the mega-mart liquor section is (in theory) there`s a sales person with real product knowledge---not only of each product but WHERE that product is located in that store!

I walk into a small hardware store because I want to "search" for a product, and don`t know where to begin. The saleperson (I assume) is my "search window" right there in the store. They point me or lead me to the aisle, hone down the question, then show me a line of solution products. My immediate next visual cue is the price, so I can "sort" by my budget. Finally, I pick up the box and read the cover description, or I ask the salesperson, or I read a description card.

The more I think about it, every site I`ve enjoyed, stayed to explore, and often bookmarked has had that search feature. It doesn`t generate a plain list, but produces a readable-size thumbnail, the title of the product or result, the price (where applicable) and a summary. It`s an on-site results page that`s as informative as Google, with pictures.

When I click on any result, I`m taken to a specific page dedicated only to that product, not another page where I have to scroll or search visually. I get a larger picture, detailed info, and a way to order and buy that product. The search window is always present, and I can initiate another search from any page.

Additionally, if the site is really sophisticated, along the sides or to the bottom I`ll get suggestions for related products, with links. And those suggestions will actually be useful and meaningful to me.

Only after I`ve found very closely or exactly what I put into Google to find, then do I start looking at the home page, registrations, newletters, or whatever other folksy personalized things. But it comes down to two thing, I believe:

1.   How legitimate and exact is the page I click to in relation to the title and summary I found on the SE results listing,

2.   How quickly can I "ask somebody" (the internal search window) where to go on this site (the store or library), to find exactly what I came there for in the first place.

If I`m right, then it means having a Web designer who really has some good qualifications where it comes to a site search feature.

Pet peeve: Search windows on sites that can`t parse or stem words, and that only find results exactly as typed, in order, with not even the ability to find results for each typed search word! "Miles Kimball" absolutely has Parcel-post pre-printed mailing labels, but they`re called something else in the catalog. When I search their site for anything related to parcels, post, labels, packages, etc., I get a "not found" result! How incredibly stupid is that!?

Actually, it`s not the designer but a good choice of shopping cart, in which this feature (and many of the above features you mention) will be part of the shopping cart system. There are some good carts out there that don`t cost a lot, and that do a great job with all these things... the key is in knowing which cart best fits your needs, and then how to set it up properly. A lot of web designers fall short when it comes to setting carts up as they are not always so easy to do, especially those that allow you a great deal of flexibility in your site design. Then you have to look at the back end--the part the customer will use to maintain his/her site, and some of those are so confusing it would take a miracle for the average person to figure them out.

Best advice--google "shopping cart reviews", then check out the sites of the carts that seem like they`re what you want. Look at not only the front end, but the admin end.. this will help eliminate some carts from the get-go. Then look through the things they offer... a lot offer all sorts of stuff, but only as add-ons.. meaning the cart can cost you a bundle if you really want all those items. But some carts include those same items and are very reasonable... all this looking will help you  figure out what you HAVE to have, what you`d LIKE to have, and what`s fluff that you couldn`t care less about. Little by little, it will help you sort out what you really need, and that you can take to a designer who can then look into the technical details for you.

Ah....alright, so it`s the shopping cart that handles the searching. Good to know, and it got me thinking further. If we draw an analogy between a neighborhood store we really like, a chain mega-store, and a virtual store in an e-commerce or informational form, what parts equal what things.

I`ll say that the parking lot is the bandwidth. If you go to shop at the store but can`t even park your car, you`ll never even get in the door. Bandwidth best meets these criteria, and if the server capacity can`t handle the traffic you have problems.

SEO, then, would be like the sign on the store, the sale posters in the windows, and perhaps the window display. It would include your marketing campaign, such as ads in the weekly paper, Yellow Pages listing, Chamber of Commerce listing, and blow-in flyers, and maybe even mass-mailings to general areas.

All these get your customer to the door. They walk in, and what I believe has become the lost art of retail happens next. They either see a particularly interesting display, or they`re staring around as they stand there at the door. At that point, someone used to come up to them and ask, "Can I help you?"

After the salesperson offers help, that same salesperson used to provide specialized, expert knowledge on the products. How many of us will agree that a "retail" pet peeve is the almost complete lack of sales help, first, and then the utter lack of any knowledge by those low-end "sales associates!" Show of hands? :-)

The most frustrating sentence to hear as a sales person, following, "Can I help you," is "No...I`m just looking." Then, to watch them walk out the door. It`s critical to have something---anything---that starts the conversation: "What`s that?" The dialog is what begins the sales process, not leaving customers to figure out what they have to do, and work at spending their money!

The search feature is the sales person, asking "can I help you?" It has to be passive for now, but in the coming kiosk-type systems, using AI and animated human expressions, it`ll be a real person. Many people get upset with TJG, but his site has an animated woman explaining why the site exists. If it can be turned off, good. If it tracks secondary visits and doesn`t speak, also good. But it`s putting a face to the "implied" sales clerk, sales person, maitre d`, concierge, and so forth.

Finally, the last pet retail peeve is long lines at the checkout counter. It`s enough to make me avoid future shopping there. So an integrated sales (search), product knowledge, and speedy checkout I think is a must to bring people into the Web site. Would you agree?

Follow-up is all well and good, but I think more important is remembering the customer. Good sales people can do it by memory, but a computer can do it better. Offering a voluntary registration provides the "Hi Craig, welcome back! Have we got a deal for you!" :-) I don`t mind, as long as the default is to NOT send me ads, specials, bargains, newsletters, and so forth. I`ll check the boxes if I want the info.

Most important is to do two things: First, when I say what I want, get me exactly that thing, not something else. Secondly, to have enough store expertise that I can say, "I`m not sure what I want, but I think it`s something sorta like...this other thing." Then, the sales person, using a human mind, "interprets" what I meant to say, and finds it.

That`s where Google, Amazon, and other great sites shine. They use sophisticated reasoning algorithms to actually help me find what I want, even when I`m not sure of exactly how to describe it. If that`s part of a good shopping cart, then I`d say it`s fundamental to spend the money on the shopping cart and SEO, both in equal proportions.

Some of what you seee may be the differences between living in an urban area and living in a more rural area. At every store down here (other than the mega-stores like Walmart), where it is still a "small town" in many respects, someone always asks you as soon as you walk in the door "Can I help you?" This is actually part of their anti-theft policy, letting the customer know that they are watching you. It also happens to make it sound like they want to assist, and some really do want to help. However, this can be frustrating for someone like me who rarely shops due to time constraints, and who really does want to browse without someone breathing down their neck. Many times I don`t find anything that suits me due to whatever current styles are in the store so I leave empty-handed. But I don`t want to be pestered, I want to enjoy the experience of browsing. This is why I like shopping online so much, I don`t have someone pestering me every few minutes as some of them do. A good salesperson learns to read their customers, so they know when to leave someone alone. I usually have to tell them "I`ll let you know if I need help" and even then some of them still pester.

On the other side of that coin, if I DO need help it`s great to find someone who will go out of their way to make sure you have exactly what you need. In one clothing store I visited when I was in NJ several years ago, a very busy store as it was the day after Thanksgiving, the sales assistant helped me find everything I wanted, would bring things to the changing room for me so I could test sizing, helped me to find the best sales items, then went out of her way to make sure I had the advantage of every discount they were offering that day on top of the marked tags. She was amazing, handling several customers at the same time in the same way. But for the short time I needed that assistance, I had "my own" concierge! I have never dealt with a salesperson more efficient nor more customer-oriented, who went out of her way to figure out what it was I needed and made sure I had as much as I wanted.

Here`s another good example of excellent service that I remember to this day because it *was* so good: some years ago I ate dinner in a local diner in NJ, and the waitress anticipated my every need even though it was a busy place. When I was just finishing my cup of tea, she would appear at my elbow with a fresh one. As soon as I finished with something and was ready for the next item, the plate was gone and the next one would appear. I never waited more than a moment for anything, and she delivered the items so effortlessly that one hardly noticed her presence except for the excellent service. As busy as the place was, this waitress was so in tune with her customers that everyone was taken care of just as well as I was. I have never had another waitress nearly as good, even in the fancy eateries. She had a big tip that night from me because her service had been wonderful, as if she was reading my mind. She loved what she did, and thus she did it wonderfully well. I had a chat with her afterwards and told her just how good she was.

The key here is knowing your customers, then trying to fulfill their needs. Few stores really do that well, but those that do, I go to again and again and again.

The great sites online do just that--they do studies, they take the time to figure out what their customers like through site metrics, and try to make sure that the customer`s need is met. The downside of a business as huge as Amazon is now, however, is that you can no longer talk to a person (at least, not in my experience, and sometimes email just doesn`t cut it. But some of the larger businesses online still do provide the level of customer service that a small business does, and thus their businesses continue to grow in the best of ways. Something to remember when all the entrepreneurs here get huge...  :-)


The long lines are just part and parcel of being in an urban area at a popular store, I`m afraid, though some do seem to handle it better than others. When I first came to NC, a "long line" at the grocery store meant you had one other person in front of you. Now we have much longer lines due to the heavy development that has been going on here steadily for the past 10-15 years. Our service has degraded quite a bit because of the huge influx, but for those stores we go to on a semi-regular basis, the salespeople do get to know you and try to give you what you want/need when they see you come in. It is not unusual to have a long chat with the teller at the bank when things are not too busy, or to know that your post office person has a new grandchild or the guy at the hardware store caught a huge fish last weekend. It`s just that way, and I love that unrushed feel.

So what`s the takeaway from all this? SEO gets you ranked, Google lists your site, and the summary text indicates the site "will have" (you haven`t clicked yet) the information you`re looking for. You click....and now how does the site pull you in? The site should:

• Be visually interesting without being cluttered.
• Tell you right away what it`s about.
• Immediately show you the information you searched for.
• Offer a useful and helpful "Search" function that works.
• Show you what you`re buying or reading, and explain it.
• Provide a simple-to-use checkout counter
• Offer you the option to be remembered, or to save your shopping cart
• Check the metrics and configure itself to your tastes.
• Be interesting to read, and be interactive to some degree.

Anything else? This is to draw in the viewer, keep their interest, and keep them clicking on various links. It isn`t about functional technique, it`s about simply what`s interesting. Lots of people admire Chick Corea (jazz) for technique and skill, but a whole lot more people probably know B.B. King.

The tossed-around statistic is that people (in the US) read at about an 8th grade level. I`d tend to suspect it`s lower, but the point is that a Web site is mostly reading! I`d also propose that the site be as easy to navigate as perhaps a high-school kid`s attention span would handle.

This is NOT to say a site should be condescending, patronizing, elitist, or otherwise based on a belief that people are dumb! It`s only to say that in this "hypnotic" state of consciousness, we fall out of the analytic mode, more into the comfortable-fun mode.