Forums: Discussions for entrepreneurs and small business.

Craig,

I couldn`t have said it better myself. You just said it with less hair than I have.

Look, I use brainstorming sessions all the time in my branding process, but for the most part it`s with creatives (English lit. master`s candidates, linguistic students, graphic designers, foreign language experts, artists, etc). The idea there is to get good creative input, not deep industry knowledge. Much of that is accomplished before the brainstorming, where ideas are fleshed out, then those results (name candidates, tagline candidates) are taken to focus groups made up of the very industry targets you are describing.

Back to the brand building thread, you can`t ask any schmo to brand something just because you offer a lousy $250. Branding is art & science, deep experience, and creative nuance, love of language, as well as an understanding of the language of the target audience.

In this case, a trade association doing a contest with contractors has failure written all over it. How is a contractor supposed to be a marketing strategist, or understand the alternative marketing messages being presented to their target audience?

In summary -  You: concrete. Me: branding. We should stick to our core competencies. I promise not to try and build any retaining walls, and you promise not to let your trade association brand by committee of the uninformed.
I clean up these messes all the time, and by the time it gets messy, everybody is pissed off, the budget is spent, and we`re -90 days from launch. This makes for a very expensive project, which I call my `Porsche Fund`.

There are certain facts of nature all of us should know.

1. We`re born with only so many heart beats. If we use up too many of them with exercise, we`ll run out sooner and die.
2. Anyone can choose: hair or words. Whichever one we choose, the other suffers.

Just stating the facts......

Ok, here`s my sign.   (For the uninformed, a reference to a country comedian regarding stupid people, stupid questions)

Well, I for one am disappointed but not surprised.  I am gone for a few days doing real work, come back to check on where this has gone and I find it pretty much dead from a community participation standpoint.

CraigL.  You`re right, this is about branding, and in my single train of thought, didn`t see it as such, but as an opportunity to pick the brains of the world at large for perceptions.  A mis-think on my part.  However, you did say that this could be part of a clever marketing campaign, and that is exactly the opportunity that I see here.  However, they can`t be that clever because they have opened it up only to the installers, not the public.  That`s where I think they have really missed the boat.

These forums can be a great place to learn, and I am getting quite an education, not always the one I thought I would get.  I am amazed at the talent that frequents these forums and am glad to get the input.  Having said that.

WARNING:  The following is a bit petulant.  

BrandAlchemy, I have followed a couple of threads where you post and you seem to be a very direct, straight-forward type, a lot like myself.  I admire that in my relationships.  Don`t beat around the bush, get to the point.   As we have seen on SuN, that style tends to rub people the wrong way if they don`t know us. 

You have made good contributions and points.  Here`s my gripe.  My observation regarding suggesting different approaches to marketing: I find it interesting that when us poor schmo`s(?) present ideas, poorly stated or otherwise that don`t conform to unstated "good" practice or maybe outside the box, there are a few on these threads (as you have done here and another well-known contributor has done elsewhere) that play the trump card of how much they get paid by their clients to work with them, as if to say, "I get paid for this, so my opinion is the only one that counts".  OK, you`ve shown me your`s, here`s mine: My clients pay me upwards of $1MM per engagement.  So what? That has nothing to do with the ideas I have.  I am not in control of the association, not involved with their marketing campaign and I have no idea of what they are doing.  They do what they want.  I just see it as a big missed opportunity on their part. 

*** End of Petulance ***

As I said before, I saw this forum as an opportunity to open this up to SuN and pick their brains.  Didn`t say they would necessarily come up with a winner, but I would find their feedback interesting and informative.

For an idea that may have been poorly forumlated or presented, I`ll stand up and take my lumps, I`ve got fairly thick skin. 

Maybe I`m wrong on this, but the results speak for themselves.  Given the feedback posted here, and the lack of contributions over time, it seems that the pool has been contaminated a bit and noone wants to jump in.

"Dead, bring out you dead".  We`ll see if he ain`t dead yet. : )

Burnin` Green,

Look, I don`t attempt to build houses out of concrete or whatever because I have no background, education, or experience in doing so. That`s your job, and I`m sure you are very good at it.

Then, why is it that branding is somehow seen as an `anyone can do it` exercise?
That`s my job, and I`m very good at it, too.

See my point?

Somehow, since it seems a little artsy and fun, some people have gotten the idea that making up stuff like taglines and brands is easy. It`s not. The general public - i.e. people on SuN who are not in your industry niche - will not be in a position to be of much help in this case.

I do have one observation, however: are we arguing about ideas, or people? Frankly, I was discussing the idea that any average person attempting a branding project was not going to be very fruitful. This is outside of, and not even relevant  to, a given person`s approach or whatever.

In other words, please decide if you would like to argue either (a) the idea or
(b) your opinion of me or my approach. If it`s (b), I really could care less. I am here to discuss ideas, not to get feedback on my approach to ideas. If you don`t like my approach, that`s fine, but unsolicited advice is called that for a reason: it`s unsolicited, meaning it wasn`t asked for to begin with. The idea which you initiated with this post is the issue; how I chose to respond to it, well, isn`t the issue.

In other words, let`s stay on track and argue the idea, not our individual approaches to how we conmmunicate. You have your style, I have mine.

I find that issue to be completely irrelevant to the discussion of the idea.

I enjoy being in these forums, I have learned quite a bit. 

I wasn`t putting this up to argue the idea about this being a valid marketing approach or not, but that seems to be where the energy is.  Ok, you`ve made your point about not putting sharp objects in the hands of children. 

As business owners, we have to deal with marketing issues every day, like it or not.  And many times owners don`t realize they are marketing all the time.  Some can afford talent such as yourself, others can`t.  So while it may not be advisable to do one`s own marketing, many have to dabble until they can afford professional help.  You have indicated that most of us would not be your type of client.  Until we build our businesses to the point of having a large marketing budget, you are correct.  But please don`t discount the steps and growth we have to go through to get to your level. 

As far as the individual approaches to how we communicate, the point I was getting to is that the amount of money anyone is getting paid for what they do is irrelevent to the discussions at hand.  I have seen it presented on several ocassions by several contributors as a final arguement in making a point.  Normally, it is followed with "but you aren`t my customer anyway".  It has no relevance and is somewhat juvenile. 

All your prior points are from your experience and expertise, and as such, are to be respected, if not exactly agreed with in lockstep. 

This thread was not meant to argue the idea behind the association`s contest, or to argue about people or our communications style. I take you at what I can see from all your posts, direct, to the point, not necessarily to be taken personally.  What I was taking exception to is that as an argument, how much anyone is getting paid for their opinions has no bearing on the validity of a point or not.  It about like me saying my views are right because I am taller than most, therefore I have a more authoritative presence about me.

As far as an exercise, I thought this would be beneficial to the community.  As far as presenting this idea for critique, I obviously didn`t think that part through or present it properly.  As said before, I`ll take my lumps for that.

BTW, your points about their approach are valid in some context.  You may not use this approach, but as CraigL suggested, as a clever marketing campaign, I think they missed the boat. 

Regarding these topics going off into the ozone, don`t you (anyone) think it`s mostly because the original poster doesn`t maintain a sort of moderator`s um....management, for want of a better word? ;-)

In this case, BurninGreen is doing that, reminding folks when the thread goes off topic. But this also isn`t an academic lecture hall or seminar. Forums, for the most part, remind me of a bar or lounge where people with similar interests just get together to informally yack about stuff.

People post topics, then community members make comments. If the person originally asking a question or making a point doesn`t have much to say, the thread just wanders off on its own...sometimes into the surreal. Nothin` wrong with that, as far as I can see...it`s just conversation.

A bar room discussion?  Sounds good to me.  The problem seems to be that when I have to leave the table, it becomes someone else`s conversation.

  Maybe I`m not cut out to be a moderator, I don`t seem to have the writing ability to herd cats.

As far as BrandAlchemy and CraigL`s contributions made in an informative way, thanks.  You know how to keep a person sharp.  

To all: All I ask is that if a topic is beneath consideration, then have the courtesy to not make a post stating it not being worth the time or effort. Us peons gotta learn to.

Regardless, I`ll be checking in for a few days to see if there is any interest.

I believe this is what generated the flow of the topic. In particular, your belief that "all business owners can find an adaptation of this [contest]...."

Some people agreed and tried messing with a tagline. Others examined the idea of such a contest. In between, there`s room for some casual humor, sidebars, and that kind of thing.

I`ve yet to see a forum where people are asked to refrain from posting because they (according to someone else`s view) don`t have anything specific to contribute. :-D I HAVE seen that in school settings, especially in my own distinguished past where I was often "sent to the principal`s office" of contributing what others didn`t feel was useful commentary.

C`mon...ease up a bit. It`s a conversation. :-) Readers simply skip over the responses or posts they`re not interested in reading.

Not sure exactly what about my above post you are referring to.  If its the "herding cats", that is a humorous metephor regarding my linguistic skills.

If it is the request to skip the "dont`t waste my time posts", that is in response to BrandAlchemy`s mention of:

"Thanks, but I`ll just concentrate on my clients who pay me $25,000 to do that. " along with sakrete references and a $250 gift card to St. Louis, or whereever.

To which, trying to keep it light, I responded:

"Ok, Ok, Ok, You can get your tongue out of your cheek.  : )"

And then we get this jewel:

"In summary -  You: concrete. Me: branding. We should stick to our core competencies. I promise not to try and build any retaining walls, and you promise not to let your trade association brand by committee of the uninformed."

Lighten up? Sure, I enjoy good conversation, give and take.  I don`t and most others don`t care on being on the receiving end of unhelpful, demeaning comments as this.

We`ve all got our hot buttons, and this one is mine. I`ve seen this type of post in several threads by others in SuN as well.

If my summary sentence above, which was exactly accurate and not demeaning at all, got your Cathcart`s all in a wad, perhaps interior decorating would be more in order for you than construction...

I said what I said to simplify this discussion: I`m a branding guy, you`re a construction guy. How is that demeaning? It`s a fact.

And while we`re on the subject of hot buttons, here`s mine: the `piling on` attitude of comments like ` I don`t and most others don`t care on being on the receiving end of unhelpful, demeaning comments as this`.

So, now you`re into market research as well? Speaking for `most others`? Have you opened a PR firm on the side that we`re not aware of? Do you run a poll on this site somewhere where you field questions on who likes and dislikes people?

Back to my original point, then I`m going to stop wasting my time on this: decide whether you would like to argue (which means reasoned debate, not fighting) the idea, or the person. Personal arguments are best addressed via private messaging in my opinion. Plus, and CraigL and I know this concept too well, the ad hominem fallacy just doesn`t work. Fight the argument, not the person.

Branding by contest and committee generally results in lousy, ill-informed results. And that`s my professional opinion, regardless of how much my clients pay me.