Forums: Discussions for entrepreneurs and small business.

A number of people want to try their hand at SEO writing. The big problem is finding the right "key phrases" for not only the main, landing page, but also the other pages on the site. Maybe we could help out as a community resource?

Setting aside writing ability, the problem with Search Engine Optimization is to on the one hand, predict what people will type into the search engine query bar, and on the other hand, to make the site "find-able" to both a target market and potential customers.

There`s a difference between a "category" and a "theme." A category places a site into a set of similar other sites. But a theme is a dominant idea that carries through not only the whole site, but also each individual page on that site. SEO writing can and should use related themes on different pages to broaden the visibility potential.

If you have a Web site and are thinking you`d like to write optimized content, why not present it here and let`s see if the SuN community can help work out possible themes and key phrases? If you don`t have a theme, maybe we can help. If you do have a theme, it may not be as obvious to others as it is to you.

For example; Kathy, a friend of mine, has a product in Navy signal flags. The category is flags, banners, communication, signals, and so forth. But what theme would she use on a Web site to generate optimized content and to be found at the top of the search results?

She might write a lot of content about signal flags, custom banners, and so forth. Is that the theme? Is that what a stranger would normally type into Google? Not if nobody`s heard (yet) of signal flag banners. So what WOULD a person type, ordinarily into Google, that would bring to their attention a site about signal flag banners?

One possibility would be "celebration banners." Another might be "secret messages." Yet another might be "party accessories," "boat accessories," "boat flags." The next problem is to analyze how popular each option might be, to a general audience, and what`s the likelihood someone would type those words into Google?

Key phrases are those phrases people commonly search for in a search engine. "Commonly" isn`t at all the same thing as explicitly searching for what you already know about, but want more information. The key phrase should also be the title of the related window. Couldn`t we bring many minds together to find optimal key phrases?

CraigL,

What a great idea!


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Craig,

I like your idea as a team exercise. However, there are easier ways to discover what key words are being searched. I don`t remember the sites, but in years past, I was able to find data - for free - that gave Top 250 search words, Top 500 search words, etc., for these "themes" you speak of. In addition, once a site is up and running, I always monitor the search terms that are being entered by visitors that are available through the site statistics - from day one. If a site owner is not monitoring search terms on a daily/weekly basis, shame on them. Example, I help a client watch over their Amazon store. Their products are in the Tool & Hardware category/theme. I am able to get the top search words in the category at a moment`s notice. The same holds true for other sites I assist clients with managing. Search terms are available through the stats.

I haven`t checked in a year or so, but I suspect with all the blogging going on out there and knowing how hot the SEO niche is, there is probably groups of geniuses out there that have specific search word data available.

Not knocking your idea to utilize group brain power, but I like using verified facts and stats. And in today`s world of tracking and measuring and data collection and mining, the data is out there - it`s just a matter of finding it - which is not always easy but it can be found.

R@

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Richard Arnold · Key Concept Writers · Business Communication: The "Key" To Success· Law of Attraction Blog · Life Ain`t Brain Surgery Blog

I would imagine that this type of thread would be much more productive in an environment like Search Engine Watch, after all that`s what they are all about, think we would just be reinventing the wheel here.

Hey Elid - probably no doubt that there`s a niche discussion area for any number of topics, but I don`t think it means there`s not benefit to be gained from exploring these ideas and concepts in this setting (and not just because I`d like people to stick around StartupNation for a while, which of course I would).

If I could chime in with one point Craig, I`d say that thematic choice is going to depend, in part, on the ultimate goal of your site.  A single phrase may apply to a number of similar topics and even be relevant for different types of sites (e-commerce, blogging/content, purely informational), but attacking this question with what your end goal will be for that visitor is going to put you in good stead - started thinking about that when you cited two great examples of phrases, signal flags vs boat accessories.  The first has broader thematic elements, but I`d say boat accessories does a decent job of segmenting the search pool to people who have some level of purchase intent.

So I`d encourage the exercise, and thought I`d just add some minor direction!


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chuck fuller

I see there`s some confusion here, so let me clarify. Richard (Keycon) said, "However, there are easier ways to discover what key words are being searched..." This isn`t about finding what key phrases are being searched---Overture does that very well, and it`s a great tool.

The problem is what do you put into Overture in the first place? If you think you have a Web site about bugs, to reference Seth`s site, then do you enter into Overture "bugs?" No...you have to come up with phrases that reflect the theme you not only do have on your site, but also that people who don`t know about your site would search for.

It`s a game of predictive analysis. Vincent (Iouone2) has a current problem that also exemplifies my reasoning. His site, Elusive Treasures, offers hand-crafted "things" he finds in unusual places. Nobody is going to off-the-top-of-their-head type in "Elusive treasures" at the Google query bar. (If they do, the domain name and spelling take precedence.) What ARE they going to type in?

Would people really type in "earthborn art?" Or would they more likely type in "earthenware pot?" How about "clay pots?" See, the problem isn`t what to write after coming up with the phrases. Nor is the problem working out the various forms a phrase can take through Overture.

The problem is to FIRST figure out what phrases to even use as "key" phrases. That`s where I believe a forum like this might help.

Eli suggested it being a topic on a site dedicated to SEO. That`s fine, but this isn`t an article...it`s an interactive forum similar to "Critique my Web Site." I`m convinced that people who want to try writing their own optimized content will have a far more complex problem in working out what key phrases to use on which pages. That`s truly a marketing "mind," and we have many marketing people on SuN.

Chuck`s one such person and makes an important point. Going back to Elusive Treasures; one area of the site deals wooden flowers and floral arrangement items. Another deals in African sculpture. Yet another handles pottery and jugs. Each of those are categories, but they aren`t consolidated under either a global theme or individual page themes.

One SuN member wrote me, thinking about how all the Web site critique we do here is great, but it`s after the site has been posted. Why not do a similar critique before the site is up, when it`s in a beta stage. Same idea with SEO writing. Before someone writes thousands of words that won`t apply to the site, wouldn`t it be useful to know that?

What`s the "theme" of Startupnation.com? The category is a business site, or forum site. But the theme is the entrepreneur, startup businesses, and the interactive sharing of advice. If someone were to write SEO content for the main page, going on with key phrases about "startup nation" "starting businesses" or "startup capital," it would work, but would it be optimal to attract entrepreneurs?

Then there`s the whole issue of non-marketing people trying to imagine the mind of the open market, potential target groups, and so forth. Seth has a great site, educating kids about insects and bugs. He`d like to be more visible in rankings, but how does he work out a theme for the landing page, then related sub-themes for each and every other page on the site?

If we, as a community, were to visit a specific page he places as a link in this forum, we could likely develop a consensus as to the best three themes, or most likely thematic approaches the open market would think of when they type SOMEthing into a Google query bar. See?

After he picks a theme for a page, that`s when we can offer suggestions for related key phrases. Only after that, does Overture come into play and he can go research variations of those key phrases. It someone were to type "startup business" in Google, do you think StartupNation would show high in the rankings? (Try it and see.)

No doubt it is a good topic, and we have several people that are in the SEO business in SuN, I for one would get a good education in the matter. That said, keep in mind that I’m no SEO expert, not even an aficionado on this art... I would imagine that there are several things to identify before you even begin to build the site.

• What are you selling?
• Whom are you selling it to?
• How do you want them react to your site?
  

With that you can begin to think about what content you’ll include on your site. If you are selling clothing for teens you’ll write it in one way but if you are selling apparel that will likely appeal  to teens in the NE as supposed to the SW your wording would be different. Lastly how do you want them to react to what you say? Buy here or get it at Wal*Mart/The Gap etc.? this type of knowledge will allow you to understand and (most importantly) think like your target audience, if you can’t think like them you can hire people that do and you’ll end up using words or phrases they would likely search for.

Keep in mind I don’t know what I’m talking about... :-)

Cheers, 

LOL! :-) Hey...that`s the point of having a thread or forum for this stuff---shared resources, education, and learning.

I too originally thought that the above three points are important in SEO writing. They`re not.

The bullets are important to building a Web site, customer traffic, and so on, but they really have very little to do with optimizing a site for search engines. And that`s my point. SEO writing is counter-intuitive to ordinary sales.

Say we`re selling Klobnaggers, an entirely new invention nobody`s ever seen before, based on science discovered in a crashed UFO. We`re selling these things to anyone with an automobile. When they arrive at our site, we want them to be awestruck, and instantly desirous of buying at least one Klobnagger, and maybe more.

The problem is how do we GET them to our site? Remember, nobody`s ever heard of Klobnaggers, how they work, what they do, or even what they look like. Ergo, nobody`s going to "search" for what they don`t know about and aren`t aware of.

However, Klobnaggers have to do with automobiles. Two points come from this: The first is that we want key phrases involving cars, automobiles, transportation, and roads.

The second is that although the site itself is going to speak about Klobnaggers, there is a lot of space on a Web page. We can use space on each page to write content that *seems to be* only slightly related to the main content. Within that extra writing are many key phrases.

So suppose we have a page on our site that gives ordering information, price, and pictures of the many varieties of Klobnaggers. At the "below the fold" area, we can have 300 words of content that speak about automobile resale value, car insurance premiums, and how Klobnaggers prolong the life of your vehicle.

The theme for this page alone, related to the overall site is "Klobnaggers improve car value." With that, we can brainstorm possible key phrases that someone might search for that are more common than "improve car value." Note too, that resale value is only the sub-theme on this single page.

On another page, maybe the About Us page, we might have a theme that "Klobnaggers are easy to use." Then on a different page, the theme would be "Klobnaggers improve driving safety." The overall theme is that Klobnaggers make owning a car easier, safer, cheaper, and an investment. That`s the global theme "car as investment."

There could be very different themes: "car as ego," "car as pleasure," "car as practical device," and so forth. Remember too, that although a human bean might wonder at the redundancies in this text written in various places, a Search Engine has no evaluation judgement. It uses only mathematical algorithms to determine if too much repetition is simply spam, or it`s pertinent to the site.

I`d argue that most people don`t so easily see the thematic flow of their own site, don`t know that much about how to develop key phrases, and could use some brainstorming in the area. And yet many people seem to want to try their hand at writing SEO content. I`ll bet we could help.

CraigL… Thanks for using Elusive Treasures as your example. I am actually looking for an SEO writer that can help with not only SEO writing but also selling points and call to actions. I look forward to gaining a greater understanding by use of this post.

Hey Craig… How many Klobnaggers do you have? How did you decide the name is a Klobnagger?

I have questions about writing SEO as lots of text describing your product VS few words, maybe a short paragraph with more specific descriptive terms and less verbiage.

I feel the need to write for the search engine to be seen. I find it necessary write for the viewer. There is some arguing factors there.


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Vincent Wilcox (a.k.a. KRAKR)
Drummer
My band: Letters Make Words

Keep in mind I`m still learning this stuff too, but since it`s my passion to extract principles from events, I`m always looking for that linchpin, single concept that really defines a complex set of events.

The trick is to not only repeat a key phrase "x" number of times, but also to make the surrounding text fairly readable and understandable to a human reader. Remember that a search engine is a machine-mind built out of mathematical decisions and logic. The function of the search engine isn`t only to find something. Far more important is to find what`s relevant to you.

Google is constantly trying to stay ahead of the relevance market. If you`re searching for "tallow," for example, because you want to make old-fashioned potato chips, you don`t want results all about candle making. How does Google determine relevance? Nobody knows for sure, outside of the Google programmers, but we can make educated guesses.

One such guess is that the number of occurrences of words that almost exactly match not only what you typed, but the order in which you typed them means the site "probably" is relevant. That doesn`t mean it`s relevant to you personally, but that the odds are it`s at least something you`d want to look at. Logic proposes that 10 references to cooking with tallow are going to be more relevant than 1 reference to the word tallow alone.

So how do you determine those key phrases? That`s the art of SEM (search engine marketing). SEO is the search engine optimization of a site, through not only the written content, but all the many other aspects Web designers have discussed on many SuN forums.

We`re really not talking about writing skill here, per se. But that`s where the balance between interest to a human bean v. interest to a search engine comes into play. The thought behind this topic was more about sharing community impressions as to what`s a site "actually" about, versus what does it "appear to be" about. That at least would provide some key phrases.

What the site owner does about the writing from there is up to them. It only occurred to me that people want to write their own content, and the hardest aspect is to first decide what key phrases that content will reiterate.

As for the Klabnaggers, well I first bought one in my travels to the Easter Islands, back in the `90s. I didn`t invent the term myself, but was shown the term in my mind, walking on a beach one night. There was this glow, see...and a beam of light....and...and....