Forums: Discussions for entrepreneurs and small business.

I`m really surprised as to how as a copywriter, you try to be so articulate via the written word, but yet fail in so many areas by insulting me and my portfolio of work. If you go back and read what I said, I never said "everybody" to which you asserted to. And second, I never once attacked your body of work or portfolio but yet you manage to reference my line of work and are convinced that he can do it better after seeing my line of work.

My previous post had simply gone on a tangent and talked about the opportunity costs involved and the paradox. How you manage to infer and go on a long tangent about webmasters and their incompetencies is beyond me. If you want to pick a fight with me, just say so rather than sit here and mince words with me for the sake of proving a point. There are many ways to prove a point w/o trying to insult people.

I am not even sure if I want to sit here and get into a debate about designers and copywriters right now if this type of behavior is going to go on

At this point, I`d rather we just chalk it up to miscommunication and we should just let each other be before more insults are thrown.

If I offended you I apologize. It was never my intent to offend you. My purpose in posting was to provide an alternate point of view.

As I stated at the end of my post, I could be totally wrong...and the only way one would know for sure would be to test it...

My post was made from personal experiences and I do feel that Paul is very close in creating a website that will serve `his` needs. I felt a need to encourage him to continue doing what he is doing before going out and paying these professionals a boatload of money for something he is clearly capable of taking care of himself at this stage...

Again, I do apologize for offending you. That was not my intent.

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Website Startup Coach: Step-by-Step Coaching to Help You Build a Profitable Business Online!

ok- no problem. it takes a big person to admit that. let`s just call it miscommunication and leave it at that.

And by the way, not that I ever cared for what others thought of me, I have helped a few clients make tons of money. In one example, I did some SEO and blog consulting and the client doubled her income within a year to go from 5 figure to 6 and she had to hire on 2 assistants to handle the workload. And those new clients can be attributed directly through my work  :)

I think the web site looks awful. It`s sloppy, poorly written, and looks thoroughly unprofessional. Cartess, while I tend to agree with many of your posts, I have to take the opposing side this time.

This web site is the equivalent of a sloppy personal appearance or a messy, unkempt office. It just doesn`t look good and it certainly sends the wrong message. Sorry if that seems harsh but it`s basically the truth.

Ever wonder why realtors tend to drive nice vehicles? Why bother shaving? Why bother with the white shirt, the tie, and the jacket? It`s one thing to design your own web site ... and another to do it badly.

Bottom line: the site says "I don`t care enough to create something presentable."

I have to take issue with something else in Cartess` previous post:

"And the reason I say its better for some people to design their own website is because the client knows their product and customers better than any webmaster. And oftentimes, when the client puts their own site together, they`ll typically communicate the right copy on the site which tends to convert at a much better rate than the designer."

Cartess, this paragraph is definitely your opinion presented as fact. [It`s also full of qualifications such as "some" and "tends" and "often times". Nothing wrong with using qualifiers except it makes your writing seem like it`s unsure of itself. Heavy use of disclaimers makes me think you are afraid to give advice that takes a position. Are you afraid to take a position?]

And I`m sorry, but your post is also full of bad advice. Most of the self-made sites submitted for review on StartupNation feature extremely poor copywriting, in addition to display problems in multiple browsers, layout problems, grammatical problems, and javascript errors, etc. I could go on but I won`t. The sum total of these shortcomings says to the customer: "This business doesn`t care" while leaving the visitor to scratch their head while they try to figure out if the product or service offered is relevant.

I absolutely agree that the client knows the product and customer better than a web designer but most of the web sites I`ve critiqued here are poorly written at best. Most people don`t try to fix their own teeth but they`ll happily "design and implement" their own web site even though they do not possess the multi-disciplinary knowledge required for web design.

Writing marketing communications is not something that comes naturally to very many people if the web sites I`ve seen here are any indication. Copywriting seems especially counterintuitive? "You mean I should use fewer words?" "You mean people won`t read 2000 words on the front page?"

I`ve said your advice was bad and now I`ll tell you why. If someone wants to design their own web site the correct advice is as follows:

1. Read several books on HTML and CSS.

2. Read several books on design.

3. Read several books on branding.

4. Read several books on marketing.

5. Read several books on copywriting.

6. Read several books on writing.

7. Read several books on technical writing.

I do understand that poorly designed sites sometimes work very well but your advice doesn`t even pass the common sense test. It`s not common sense to assume that a poorly implemented web site will perform better than a well designed site.

Agreed. CookieMonster, you make some very valid points. After going back and reviewing my posts, I realized many of the statements I made were wrong and irresponsible.  Some were insulting and once again I apologize.

For many people, hiring a professional designer would probably be ideal. But be very careful in who you hire. Do your homework!

In my humble opinion, I still believe Paul`s site is not far off from being a profitable/converting website. With a few modifications, it could work extremely well for him. I still stand by that...obviously I`m seeing something totally different than what most people are seeing...whose right? whose wrong? Nobody knows for sure, only testing would indicate that...and at this point, I would encourage everyone to always `be testing`. Most of you have no idea how many millions of dollars are left on the table due to you not testing your websites, advertising copy, ads, mailers, etc...

As CookieMonster suggested, you should do the following...

1. Read several books on HTML and CSS.

2. Read several books on design.

3. Read several books on branding.

4. Read several books on marketing.

5. Read several books on copywriting.

6. Read several books on writing.

7. Read several books on technical writing.

Do this even if you decide to hire a designer...knowing the basics will only help you as you move farther along in your business.

Again...I apologize for the rant and the poor advice provided. After re-reading my post, I too can agree that many of the statements I made don`t make sense.

And Dean...I`m sincerely sorry for attacking  you. I have many clients who need SEO and I`ll be contacting you in the coming weeks to discuss those possibilities.

Cartess

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Website Startup Coach: Step-by-Step Coaching to Help You Build a Profitable Business Online!

RE: putting an audio pitch on the site:

I was checking out Copperman`s Web site, and it`s an excellent implementation of audio. This is what I had in mind, Paul, whether you do it yourself, or have a pro audio reader do the voice. :-)

Let`s keep in mind that Paul said he`s wetting his feet in the new world of HTML and Web development, mostly because it`s in his nature to first want to try the "do-it-yourself" approach.

From what I`ve read by other developers, one of the biggest and most annoying problems they have with clients is that those clients so often don`t provide useful content. Many developers seem to know for sure it`s not their business to market the product, but to put up a Web site.

That`s like asking the signage company to also write the slogan advertising the store. The phonebook people have it right, where the Sales dept. handles getting your info into the Yellow Pages. But if you don`t know what you want to say, they hand you over to the Layout & Design dept., for an additional fee.

Paul, it comes down to how much time do you want to invest in being a Web developer? If you`re writing another book, it seems less likely to me that you`d want to take time away from it, when you could just as easily delegate to a designer and marketing company. There are a couple here in the community, and you might see what they have to offer.

Otherwise, learning all the ins and outs of Web design is a pretty complex effort. (That`s a technical term for total pain in the butt!) :-)

I haven`t said anything in a bit as I`ve been enjoying the discussion and didn`t want to interrupt.  But, now I guess it`s time to bring this an end.

I appreciate the comments.  Basically what I`ve come away with is a sense that my first impressions were correct--and wrong.  Prior to putting this site up I had spoken with several designers.  Their sites were beautiful, pricey and a pleasure to look at.  I also came away with the impression they know absolutely nothing about my market or how to help sell to my market.  They wanted to talk about all the latest and greatest new stuff I could put on the site; and I could have this do that and something else do something else.  They wanted to talk about colors and fonts and pictures and whatever--but they never really wanted to talk about who would be going to visit the site, what they would be interested in, and how they were going to get there.  It just seemed to me that knowing the target audience, what they would be looking for, why they would be coming and how they would be getting there would be important.  But, then, what do I know about designing a website?  It appeared to me that in the cyber world wizardry, flash and using what`s new and cool--the technical side--was what was important rather than audience and purpose.  So, I passed and decided to do it myself.

And in the discussions above, to a large extent, I`ve found the same discussion.  No one has had the slightest interest in where my visitors come from, who they are, what they expect, and why they`d come to my site to begin with.

I do want to thank everyone for their opinions.  I`ve received some good advice--and some that doesn`t seem to be quite on target.  Cartess and Craig certainly seemed to add the most value to the discussion.  Looks like I may be in the same situation--knowing there is work to be done--but I do have some things that certainly must be addressed and you guys have helped point some of those out--but still wondering where that designer is that knows something about hitting my target audience.  Cartess, give me a call.

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Paul McCord Author, Creating a Million Dollar a Year Sales Income: Sales Success through Client Referrals http://www.powerreferralselling.com

I still like to bring up that IBM ad, where the older guy`s talking with the younger Web designer. The young guy`s going on about adding in flaming logos, moving images, Flash, and so forth.

The older guy sighs, and says, "I just want it so that when someone buys an item, it gets deleted from the inventory."

The young guys pauses, then says, "I don`t know how to do that."

Paul, when you ask for a critique of a Web site, you`re getting mostly an analysis of whether or not the site is visually workable, easy to navigate, understandable, and functional. Sometimes there`s a discussion on the marketing capability, but for the most part, not many people seem to understand marketing.

From what I`ve seen, although we have some good marketing folks in the community, they don`t often get involved in site critiques. Why that is, I don`t know. The bottom line is that a Web site isn`t a flyer, it isn`t a brochure, and it isn`t all that much like anything that`s come before. It`s a new sales and information device.

Let us know when you change around the site. I`d like to see it again, as this particular discussion has been quite different from other critiques. :-)