Forums: Discussions for entrepreneurs and small business.

On the topic "Websites: A Manual for the Basically Clueless" I said that:


That initiated a firestorm of commentary about the moral validity of the statement. It hijacked the thread, and realistically, we should "take the discussion outside." This is a branch to that topic, separating out the morality of crap. :-D

Anyone who wants to continue the discussion on the morality or ethics of Crap for Sale, and the Crap Police, please use this thread instead of messing up the other one.

I have no qualms about arguing the relationship to offering crap for sale, free market capitalism, the meaning and definition of morality, how it differentiates from ethics, or anything else on the subject. I`d just like to keep it under a separate topic than Web site manuals.

Thanks. :-)
craig

BrandAlchemy said:

I`m not confusing crap and junk, I`m referring to low-quality, low-interest products. I`m also referring to the "offer to sell" under the context and common interpretation of "selling."

Morality is the study of good and bad, judgements as to the policies someone holds in their interaction with life and existence. Many philosophers call the area of study "Ethics," while others call the same thing "Morality." That`s just plain confusing.

To make matters more clear, I`m saying that the study of policies in life is Morality. The study of Procedures in life is Ethics. An even easier way is to say that Morality is the study of Good and Bad. Ethics is the study of Right and Wrong. Agree or disagree, I`m just setting the framework. We all know we`re discussing the "bigger picture" of crap, offering it for sale, and making a judgement.

If we consider selling any product, we must consider that someone is expected to buy that product. The people evaluating the product are free to choose, even in monopolies. Anyone can offer to sell crap. There`s nothing at all wrong with it, and IF they make a fortune doing so, there`s nothing wrong with that either!

The fundamental "moral" justification has nothing to to with whether it should be illegal, controlled, regulated, or anything else. It`s a foundation of free-market capitalism. If you want to argue the morality of that, fine...we can do so.

Let`s just remember that the people BUYING the crap, thereby producing the millions in revenues are an equal part of the equation.

I think that there is something more important than money and revenue and profit.

I think that there are 2 sides to this argument:

1) People who make cheap products and sell them at cheap prices - your dollar stores and your Walmarts. I`m OK with that because they aren`t selling Rolexes.

2) People who charge the same amount (or more) as I do and then produce an inferior product. If you are charging for a service, don`t provide crap. This is especially true in my industry.

CraigL,
FYI there is a company that makes calendars with different pictures of
Dog poo featured every month. Now that`s what I call making a profit
selling Crap!!

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Sarah Founder www.sarahsperfectgift.com Gift giving made easy

So are we selling real crap or plastic crap?  Are we selling crappy as quality or just selling crappy for cheap?  Are we trying to mislead that our crap doesn`t stink or are we being honest that it`s crap and, well, sometimes crap stinks...

Just a few questions for clarification sake...

R-


-------------------------


Quaerite Primum Regnum

"There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line."
~ Oscar Levant ~

Twitter: @rossb

What about advertisers advertising a cheap price, but the image is of quality, but the product is crap when you see it. Do anyone see this as bate and switch? For the most part, people who sell crap may cater to people who only can afford the quality of their product. However, for companies that build crap and sell it at competitive product price, should be a shame of themselves.

Craig,

Thanks for the thread!  This just goes to show that in marketing copy, words and phraseology are very important in the marketing message vs product vs perception.

Crap by another name and different buyers becomes fetilizer, and in a poor soils area, highly prized!

By way of humor/marketing: In my former professional life I was doing consulting work for a client who had previously been the marketing/brand manager for 409 (the cleaner).  I was working the Pacific Auto show in Vegas and talking to some reps from IBM (their theme song in a minute).  My client overheard me talking with them and pulled me aside later to provide this jewel of marketing wisdom: "When you are selling crap, don`t tell them it stinks, tell them it feels reeeaaalllyyy goooodddd!  : )

On to the philosophical/moral arena:

Absolutely free markets will determine what is crap and what is not, sheisters will eventually be found out, their products shown to be what they are, and that there will always be gullible/lazy buyers for anything.  Caveat emptor!  Otherwise, we have regulated markets where the heavy hand of government offends the many to protect the idiots.

And now for IBM`s unofficial theme song:

IBM, UBM, we all BM for IBM!

So much for the marketing of crap, this was an enjoyable side-trip. 

Thanks.

BTW,

Where do you think some bio-fuels originate?

Oh crap!, I`ve got to go.  : (

For those joining the thread, it began with a discussion about the Video Professor. I wondered if anyone was actually learning from the disks, how to use, say, Excel. I proposed that people might be attracted to the "easy to learn" advertising, but the disk would sit around gathering dust.

That moved into other discussion, and I said there were many of these "no work necessary" products out there that are mostly crap. Then I said that people have been selling crap forever, making lots of money from that. I see nothing particularly wrong with it, as I tend to decide myself what`s useful and what`s not.

When I was a kid, I loved mail-order catalogs, and would buy all sorts of things. My favorite was a magic trick that if you put in four nickels, you got four dimes. Being quite the dimwit, I figured it`d be an easy way to make some money, although it would be slow. I learned all about "genuine imitiation leather," and the many other terms.

We have to allow crap in the market---meaning either plastic doggie poo or low quality merchandise that breaks in 1 minute---because who would be the Crap Police otherwise? Who would comb eBay and remove what they judge to be crap?

I still enjoy shopping at resale shops, thrift stores, and Good Will. Why? Because many high-quality cooking items have gone long out of production. They can`t be found, except in places like eBay and used items stores. The people who dropped that stuff off thought it was crap. I think it`s a treasure.

"Crap" is more often than not a subjective evaluation. To form an objective analysis of quality requires first understanding an ideal, then to understand the meaning of quality. When Nikole speaks of people offering Web services for the same price, those people are *implying* the because it`s the same price, it`s the same quality.

If the seller is in a market where the buyer`s don`t have knowledge or information, are they taking advantage, cheating, and otherwise doing a bad thing? Probably so. But who`s "fault" is it? Nobody forces anyone to buy anything in free-markets. But here in the west, we all seem to want something for nothing. Then we scream and holler that we got nothing for something.

I just know that I have had fewer than 5 contacts in the past 10 days that have been somehow swindled by a designer/developer in the past. One paid money, received a product that was not as promised, and then the company refused to return her calls. Another found out the site she paid $1500 for just 8 months ago is crap, and now she`s redoing it ... again. Another paid money for work that just never showed up. Another paid money for work that, well ... didn`t always work. The list of the stories I hear is endless.

I think these are well-educated people who had contracts with people who promoted themselves to be experts.
And then they fell short, took the money and ran.

Do you pay a mechanic and then sit there while he`s working, pointing out every issue while you hold the manual in your hands?
No, you pay your money to someone that you trust is a professional that you assume (as a good person yourself!) will act in a professional way.
And then that person doesn`t, and you are left hanging.

That, to me, is selling a crap product. You`re making a buck and running without regard to customer satisfaction or the quality of your product.

I`ve had my artist notice something out of line on a site we did back 4 months ago ... and he emails me ... and I go fix it, free of charge to the client. Because my concern is not nickel and diming people, but making a quality product that stands up over time. I`ve heard of others in my field charging for quotes, or phone calls. Charging for PHONE CALLS! What are they, lawyers? Or they charge $10K for a site that took them 2 days to make because they borrowed other code or used opensource products. But do they ever give back to the opensource group that gave them this opportunity? No, they don`t. They are just takers. Take, pilage and destroy without regard to your impact on everyone.