Forums: Discussions for entrepreneurs and small business.

As a side not to everyone ... GET FIREFOX! There`s actually nothing that I am doing to prevent resizing. I am just specifying fonts in actual numbers, not vague terms like "medium", "size 2", "2 em", or "10%". IE should very well be able to resize them at will, but it`s just choosing to not to.
Anyhoo, this has been a public service announcement for anyone out there still uses Internet Exploder, I mean, Explorer.

CraigL or anyone ...

How do you balance getting right to the point with using certain phrases that people might be interested in?

For example, I can say "you get more customers and have more sales" but what about the person who has heard this web 2.0 buzz stuff, comes to the site, sees no mention, and leaves? I can`t say that I won`t worry about leaving that bit out, because I do get a lot of people when I am networking that mention these sort of things that they are interested in. (I was very popular at the last alumni get-together after mentioning something about some web 2.0 stuff ... by the same people who weren`t giving me the time of day before then.) Or do I just put it at the bottom somewhere? It has to go somewhere. Some people really like to know that we can do podcasting or put together a webinar for them to make additional streams of income. Is there a point where you get a little too short and sweet? (Or am I reading your post wrong?)

If it`s a feature you want to sell, make a tab for it. Otherwise, it isn`t your business to first point out that Web 2.0 exists, then that you don`t or do offer it. Anyone actively looking for a developer using Web 2.0, either will look for the specific tab or ask you about it when they contact you.

My world involves three types of writing on my own, and then business writing and editing for companies. On my own, I write fiction, educational, and reference material. What I began to see, and one reason I post the way I do on SuN, is that my natural inclination is to write like I`m telling a story. But fiction and story-telling don`t work in sales and marketing, unless the entire story is finished in 30-60 seconds.

That (to me) means a build-up on a question, problem, or mystery fails. For example, "How do these two shoes relate? Why are they here? Who knows the dark and mysterious pathways shoes take in their travels through life. Read on and I`ll tell you the story of the two shoes that ate the farmer`s cow." Fine...that`s odd, maybe interesting, and leaves the reader wondering, "What is it with shoes?"

But I tried using that in the technical book. I had the unique experience of learning to write while at the same time having four editions of the same topic. When I read the first edition, preparing for the second, I "suddenly" realized that nobody wants a mystery! They want to know, right now, and get on with it.

Look at your content and watch how often you ask a question. Why? Who cares? YOU, supposedly already know the answer. Why give the reader pain?

By the fourth edition, I`d learned that short, active sentences are far better than long ones. I tried that in online forums, and saw it didn`t work. Different venue, different styles.

Best advice, coming out of all this trial and error: Put each topic on its own. Make it a tab and talk only about that topic on its own tab. Use lots and lots of white space and separation. Short sentences, no more than 10 words long, are better than long sentences or wide paragraphs.

Since you`re stating your font size, I`d go with 11-point minimum, but 12-point works well on high-res monitors. It`s a balancing act, but "the world" seems to concur that 11-point is a standard size.

Finally, I`m also learning that pictures and images not only break up the monotony of text, they also rapidly tell the story! Like...REALLY fast!

I`ve been utterly fascinated by the graphic on SuN`s main Community page. It`s a brunette, face-on, holding a card in her hand that says, "I offer accounting services." I don`t have to read a single line of text to know instantly, without my glasses, what the banner is telling me.

You`re a marketing person, you get people`s message across. How can you use some graphics to do that, parallel to your text content?

OK, let me explain better.

If I take out everything else and say "I will do this and this and this for you" and take out my "keywords" (my lists of services) ...
Well, this is how it works in the alumni networking world, which is where all of my business has come from so far. Some business owner reads businessweek or goes to an event, and sees words like "web 2.0" and "social media" and "blog". They come to my site to see if I do those things, even if they really don`t know anything about them. If I do not have them listed, they do not contact me. EVEN IF it`s something I`m going to talk them out of eventually (a great example of that is search engine optimization and search engine marketing), having it listed makes them want to make the call. This is why I have a "services list" with all these buzzwords on every page. Yes, you can also subscribe to my feed and get a whole pageful on that too, but the people who subscribe to the feed and those that enlist my services are 2 very different groups.

So my goal, for right now, is to change my language into "THIS IS WHAT I WILL DO FOR YOU" while keeping the same list of services (without leading sentence, probably) intact.

I will point out that the lady holding up the sign for the marketplaces on SUN is a bad example. Having your main text in a graphic breaks all rules of standards and accessibility. There are better ways of using a graphic and text to acheive a similar result, and my artist is working on that right now. I just wanted to add this tidbit for anyone here who was reading this thread and thought "a lady holding a sign - how great!" Just ... think twice. It reminds me of the college entrance prep site we had on here to critique recently. Her banner didn`t show up for me ... and POOF I lost her whole company name.
And if you want a GREAT example, turn off images and load this very page. The company name appears no where on this site without images loaded. So say something doesn`t download or something corrupts, or my connection is slow ... I don`t even see the name of the company on here because their page doesn`t adhere to standard practices.
Oh man, I just cracked myself up and validated the front of the SUN community section for fun. 163 errors!

Ok....here we go. Now this is a perfect example of a post that was discussed some weeks ago...Here`s a designer (a company wanting to design websites) talking about stuff that makes absolutely no sense.

You cracked yourself up because you validated SUNs code only to find 163 errors. While you`re at it...why don`t you go validate amazon.com, youtube.com, google.com, yahoo.com and walmart.com ---

What do the above companies have in common? By your standards, their code sucks! But they generate over $1 Billion in revenue on a regular.

If my memory serves me correctly, didn`t I see SuN on Fox News...my, my, my...do you think that had anything to do with their code?

Heck, my code totally sucks and you can probably find all types of mess and errors and trash going on in my pages, but I`m making money, and my conversions are through the roof, and my clients are making tons more money. They don`t care about that extra stuff.

That validation code stuff doesn`t mean a thing if your clients aren`t making money. It seems to me that you`re more concerned about proper code, validation, blah, blah, blah...etc, etc...that stuff really doesn`t matter when your client counts up the money at the end of the day.

Concerning graphics and stuff...have you actually tested the concept as to whether or not that graphic work or does not work for SuN? Some of you designers make statements that carry absolutely no weight (and trust me, I make my fair share of `baseless` statements too)

Rules are simply a guideline...if one knows what they`re doing, they can modify or break away from the rules and just may get some extraordinary results. People break these so-called rules on a regular and they achieve some pretty fantastic results...

THe technology we now have was developed by people who stepped outside the norm and broke so-called rules. In advertising/marketing, rules should be bent for testing purposes (once you have a basic understanding of the rules/guidelines).

I`m not at all impressed by your artist/designer`s work. If we`re talking about rules here, by all means, "Black Text Against a White Background Wins Everytime" But yet, you go against the very same rules and standards that everyone else should adhere too...

For newbies...don`t get all caught up in the hype. This type of stuff won`t make you money, won`t sell your products and won`t make you successful on the web.  Here is a piece of advise if you`re new (some may disagree...many may disagree for that matter ) --- LOOK AND SEE WHAT EVERYBODY ELSE IS DOING AND THEN YOU TURNAROUND AND DO THE EXACT OPPOSITE! You`ll be better off for it in the short run.

Here`s a great example of someone who has their act together:

One of SuN`s own: http://www.337design.com/

Now there you have it. And I`m sure you can validate his code and you`ll find plenty...but you know what? He`s making money. His customers are making money.

There are a few things he can do a little better to increase conversions even more...but overall, he`s probably getting all the business he needs. Some of his stuff is a little to flashy for me, but they work. He understands many of the core things that needs to be done when he puts those people`s site together.

Then again...web designers sites should be a little more flashy than the norm...unfortunately, thats the first thing prospects look at (they`ve been conditioned that way)

Take notes from that site and you may learn a thing or two...

And concerning that Web 2.0 stuff you keep talking about...why don`t you just create some type of white paper and allow them to download and print it out (free report). Or, like CraigL suggested, put a button somewhere if you feel its that important. One thing you need to remember is that YOU CAN`T BE EVERYTHING TO EVERYBODY.

All that techno-stuff don`t mean anything...it`s fancy and sounds good, but the only ones who really care are the designers themselves --which most haven`t the slightest clue as how to sell anything on the web.

---ATTENTION NEWBIES---

If you`re just getting started in your business or putting up a website. One thing you must get in your head is this --- YOU ARE NOW IN THE MARKETING BUSINESS --- NOTHING HAPPENS UNLESS YOUR PROSPECT KNOW YOU EXIST --- IN EVERYTHING YOU DO, MAKE SURE YOUR ADVERTISEMENTS, WEBSITES, BROCHURES OR ANYTHING ELES...MAKE SURE THE CONTENT SPEAKS DIRECTLY TO YOUR PROSPECTS DESIRES (WANTS, NEEDS OR FEARS).

AND HAVE A BIG CALL TO ACTION...Have them contact you for additional information. Have them download your free report (in exchange for their first name and email address).

If you`re a brick and mortar, have contests so you can collect your customers business cards...put these into your database. Stay in touch with previous customers. Market to existing customers (you paid to get them  and they`ll spend a lot more with you).

AND HERE`S THE BIGGEST SECRET OF ALL ---

THE MONEY IS IN THE LIST!

BUILD YOUR DATABASE UP WITH CUSTOMERS/PROSPECTS AND KEEP IN TOUCH. MARKET TO THAT LIST. IN EVERYTHING YOU DO - - BE BUILDING THAT LIST.

Theres a lot more too it...but that should at least get you to going in the right direction.

Sorry for the rant...I`m just being Brutally Honest here...

Cartess

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Website Startup Coach: Step-by-Step Coaching to Help You Build a Profitable Business Online!

It`s OK. We can have our differences.

I don`t want to discuss my feelings about 337design because I don`t want to pick apart someone else`s stuff without their permission.

I am a developer (not a designer as you said) and I should care. I should be about quality and `making the web a better place` and not just slapping things up. It should be about ethics and standards. (Not your standards, but the W3C standards for uniformity and accessibility.) I will leave it up to others to want to or not. All of those `sites making money` pay for redesigns on a daily basis ... they add features, they take them away, they move from tables to stylesheets, they change the functionality of the site, they change the code. You don`t know this, but I do. The difference between me and "that other guy that tosses up stuff that makes money" is that I provide sites that not only last, but they are built to save money in the future. I know you don`t see it, but I am providing a value to my customers (the value and relationship with my clients is more important to me than the quick buck!) because I am helping them in the long run. I could make them a site now that will need to be completely redone in a year, but I am not. I could make them one now for $1,200 that will cost them another $1,200 in 2 years, but I am not. I am providing a value where not only will they reach the most customers now (due to accessibility), but they will be able to redesign in a snap (thanks to standards and centralized control like stylesheets).

Yes, I don`t expect you to understand the technical mumbo jumbo of what I do, or to understand why one site is better than another. But my clients do, thanks to me, and that is important to me.

And the reason why you don`t do black text on a white background is because, like this site, it really hurts my eyes after a while to stare at. I can only see about 10-15 minutes and then I have to leave it. Especially when it`s past midnight and I`m tired anyway.

If "how much money you are making" seems to be your biggest concern, would you rather make your income, or your income minus what it costs to redesign your site every year? If those sites you mentioned had developed standards-compliant web sites in the first place, they wouldn`t need to hire so many full-time developers at $70-120K per year to continually add on to and fix their sites. They could change the entire face of the site to reflect a sale, or a season, or a sporting season if that was their thing - with a few clicks. (SAVING THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS)

Here`s some good ol` marketing language for you.

Developing standards-compliant websites:
* Reduces your costs.
* Makes your sites acessible to all (and increase your visitor base!).
* Decreases production time.
* Saves you money on quick changes and complete redesigns.
* Put the user`s experience first and engages your customer.
* IS A BETTER LONG-TERM INVESTMENT FOR YOUR MONEY.

This is the WHY of it. I do it for me to make the virtual world a better place. You do it for you to save your bottom line. According to the Web Standards Project, nonstandards development costs the customer 25% more over the life of the project. That could add up to thousands of dollars on a major web application deployment.

And I`m even more convinced that you`re just as qualified to pick apart Google`s, FOX, MSN, Amazon and Dell`s website too...

In other words, it really doesn`t matter...anybody can find flaws in anything at anytime...but, one things for certain...they`re actually doing something and are getting major results.

Apparently StartUpNation`s code must of done it`s job because when its all said and done, YOU`RE HERE....aren`t you? Typing away against their white background.

I know my code sucks -- I`m not in denial.

Cartess

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Website Startup Coach: Step-by-Step Coaching to Help You Build a Profitable Business Online!

NHG:

Cartess makes a few great points ... and so do you. Let`s talk about some of the great copywriting I saw in your post:

Developing standards-compliant websites:
* Reduces your costs.
* Makes your sites acessible to all (and increase your visitor base!).
* Decreases production time.
* Saves you money on quick changes and complete redesigns.
* Put the user`s experience first and engages your customer.
* IS A BETTER LONG-TERM INVESTMENT FOR YOUR MONEY.

This is absolutely great stuff. You definitely want to consider using it on your site. I`m not a web developer but I have to agree with your position. Do it right the first time. It`s much less expensive. Bad code design costs companies a lot of money, and not just in the long run. It costs them money in the short run as well. Now most companies don`t care about standards-compliance because they don`t know that it provides real, immediate, tangible benefits.

 

 

Yeah ... after making that list, I did decide to figure out a way to put it on the site. My artist is putting together a bunch of things I asked for today after we went back and forth on a few areas last night ... there should be a lot of fun new things there by tomorrow, including the RSS feed parser I wrote last night.

No, your goal right now is to a) continue to do what you`re doing, even though you`ve said it isn`t optimal, and b) continue to follow some set of rules yet to be determined.

I had no intention of saying you should but "a lady on your Web site holding a card that tells what service you offer." That`s literal reading, and only reinforces that you seem to be overly focused on "the rules" of something.

My intent and point was to say that a graphic IN PARALLEL with what`s interesting text to read is a very fast way to get a point across. If we could include graphics in our forum posts as easily as links, I`m sure I could come up with hundreds of images---none of which were a lady holding a card.

For another example; I`ve been reading more lately about how "black text on white backgrounds is very hard to read." That the same saying that because everyone who`s ever eaten carrots is dead, carrots are the leading cause of death among human beings.

Witness Amazon.com and Wikipedia, both leading Web sites. They both have black text on white backgrounds. Then consider magazines, books, and reports. Excepting for corporate papers, usually written very badly, all of those use black text on a very light background.

No book uses "white" paper (255,255,255 RGB). They`re off-white, somewhat like light ivory. And even THAT doesn`t matter! They use a larger font size than 9-point or 10-point. They use wider line spacing, have paragraphing leading, and often include some form of indenting.

Which is the reason people have no problem at all reading Amazon or Wikipedia?

Countless musicians are technically proficient, following all the rules, and they`re never successful beyond their local, neighborhood bar. Yet many others aren`t rules-based, aren`t technical wizards, and become world-renowned.

You have a good site---better than many. The only reason you asked for a critique is because you were tired of looking at it yourself. You wanted a different viewpoint, and so you have it. All these comments relate to what each poster, myself included, prefer and look for in a Web site.

You`ve said you`re not a designer, but a developer. All the commentary here, so far, leans toward design issues. People are trying to find "the magic bullet" of design "rules." There aren`t any, excepting in the general rules of aesthetics. That being said, "we" are your customers and can tell you WHY we`re not that interested, very interested, or anything in between.

You have the option of relegating these comments into a tiny subset of 10 people who have issues with the site. Thousands more have no issues with the site, and your business is running along just fine. Remember, to us, YOUR site is just an "exercise." It doesn`t mean anything personally, and our livelihood isn`t resting on that site.