Forums: Discussions for entrepreneurs and small business.

Hey Neuvo,

You didn`t really offend me as I`m not in this category.  Sorry if I`m being `casual` in a business forum, I don`t like to pretend to be something I`m not, that`s called `honesty`..

Firstly, if you want to box people in by their age then that`s your choice, I can`t make your choices for you.  But there are a lot of young people who are very successful in what they do because they are driven and disciplined.

Just because you weren`t like that when you were in high school or the ages that you specify doesn`t mean that others can`t be.

Your examples are assuming that the person that you`re dealing with is not disciplined even before you have done any business with them.

I would suggest that you do some introspection about how open-minded you are.

And I wouldn`t start talking about "maturity" if I was you, looking at the last post you made.

If you`d like to have a logical and mature debate about what you feel then you need to come up with a good defense, stereotyping and looking back on your own life isn`t a good defense.

FreshUpT,
I am aware that there are teenagers out there that are very successful, No doubt about it. If I used myself to describe how teenagers are, it`s because that`s how I wish I would have been when I was growing up. But! I come from a family of Entrepreneurs and my first business venture was at 15 years old. I founded my father`s Interior Designer Business. I am 35 and his business is strong as ever he caters to all the movie stars since the business is established 6 blocks away from Santa Monica Blvd [, Beverly Hills area].

Secondly, Fresh: After reading your posting it shows me your level of understanding. This is the first time I`ve ever seen the word "firstly" to begin a sentence... most adults wouldn`t use the word "firstly" to start a sentence, and adult would have used something like " first of all" .... And most of all, it doesn`t have to do with being casual, I think all of us here in the forum are very casual people... it has to do with your level of understanding of the language [not that the word firstly doesn`t exsist, I personally wouldn`t use it to open a statement especially when I am trying to act mature and discredit someone ].

Finally, I am a very open minded person ...  I have children myself, and understand that children will be children and you have to treat them appropiately to their age. I wouldn`t treat my 4  year old daughter as an adult, just like I wouldn`t give you the benefit of the doubt that you are a mature adult.


-------------------------

Edgar Monroy
Web Developer / Owner / Consultant
When starting your own business the need to "know-how" is greater than money!
http://www.nuevolution.net

Neuvo,

Thanks for the round of insults, I will not try to return the favour.

Best of luck with your business.

Insults? your grammar speaks for itself... You attack trying to discredit others? and then you run and hide? That is not how a mature adult acts Fresh...

This topic was about "Going Over seas for Development", in the mix, we did bring up some important issues such as trends that are currently affecting the market, and I have to say young kids advertising as professionals web developers is huge issue. Being able to modify your MYSPACE profile does not make you a web designer at all .... Lots of businesses are getting burned, many of them which commit the same mistakes over and over because they are trying to save a buck... Which is not the teenagers fault is the business owners for being cheap... again teenagers will act like teenagers... they are trying to make a buck, so they can have money for the weekend or to purchase the latest item that`s in fashion [ipod, wii, or clothes]...

But, in the end it`s the business owner that is affected... and just to prove my point here is what I hear all the time when someone calls in for a quote and I ask them for their files "I am trying to get a hold of the designer that designed my web site but he is not returning my calls" or "I gave him money up front and I haven`t heard from him again" or at times I get files that are non-compliant to W3C standard nor any browser for that matter.

So, here is the issue FreshUpT... After I give them a quote, what do you think they say?
The most usual comment I hear is "The other guy did it for less, why are you charging me that much?" I already gave him 300 of the proposed budget for the site, so I can`t afford it.
And like I always tell them.... Web Design doesn`t have to be expensive if its done right the first time....

I hope this explanation will help you understand what we are trying to emphesis in this topic...




-------------------------

Edgar Monroy
Web Developer / Owner / Consultant
When starting your own business the need to "know-how" is greater than money!
http://www.nuevolution.net

Nuevo,

I`m well aware of the problem that you speak of, I was not referencing it at all.  And I can understand your frustration.

My points stand, you can outsource to india etc. and get a good product back.  Good degreed and experienced people are very affordable in those countries.  It`s just how it goes.

In the same way that you can get "burned" by foreign service providers, the same happens locally.

Most clients that come to me have the same kind of $300 for a website and $1 a year for hosting attitude.  I just try to explain to them how and why those are available to them and present my own product.  If they don`t want my product, I`m better off.

If my customer expects something from me that I cannot deliver then I really cannot continue the relationship.  It makes me a happier person, and I will not slave away for $10 an hour just to keep one customer happy.  I`d rather keep a customer and myself happy.  I am important to my family and I am responsible to them.

So Neuvo, I agree with what you`re saying, it can get frustrating sometimes.  But there will always be more work, there will always be smart client that need smart designers(you)/developers(me).  I try not to worry too much.

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Thank you,
Tina Moore
Owner
PrimoSites.com Web Developers
"We make having a great website easy!"

I`ve heard of TasksEveryday.com.

When I inquired about web design and search engine marketing. They couldn`t really communicate the details of what exactly their employee`s role was in projects URLs they forwarded to me. I asked them how they generate traffic for their clients` websites (because I wanted to make sure they don`t spam). I asked them to forward me case studies. I asked them if they guarantee ranking link popularity or getting x-number of traffic to my sites.

It seems as if you receive a TasksEveryday.com rep that speaks fairly good English but if you cannot communicate directly to those who do the work, through all the phases of a project (especially, after the launch of a site) then what good is that partnership? What good is a service who can`t answer your questions.

They never followed up with me on my questions.

I have used about 4-6 different web development firms and independents over several years and I have yet to make a solid recommendation on any of my experiences. They can code and do the work but it sure is hard to get things on deadlines and there are a lot of requirements that get lost in translation.

The solution: just keep searching because there are really good people who provide great all around service out there. If you run into them, please do reply back on this post.

grrlduda,
As I mentioned earlier... on this post... you`re projects, whether you hire a free-lancer/ developer in another country or here in the United States, your project will only be as effective as your experience and working ethics.
If you provide your free-lancer with a wire diagram, sketches, written documentation of how your project is supposed to look and function what is the problem? a wire diagram if translated into 1000 different languages, that wire-frame is still a wire-frame.

If you provide them with written processes...and step-by step instructions what`s the problem.
Although the language barrier does exsist and sometimes it can be tedious if they have all the information needed they will deliver...

Afew key notes for everyone that is looking into Out-sourcing:

1.  Provide a flow chart -
   
2. IPO -  Input - Process - Output - If you`re a programmer, come on this is "Intro to Programming 101" or as I remember it`s not even a 101 class, it`s lower..
3. Sketches, paperwork and more paperwork..., you should be doing this anyways.. aren`t you?
   
4. Create a wire diagram, if you`re using visio draw a top level flow chart, and of course if you`re a programmer, show your processes.
   
5. Create a time line (you can use Project for this)
6. Finally either outsource or hire a professional...  but no matter what you decide to do, your paper trail is what`s going to make you or break you.
   

Luckly, I`ve found a company over seas, that helps me when I am busy... like now...
I do the design and they do the DB integration... these guys are Phenomenal: they work with Joomla, Zen Cart (fully customized), Magento E-commece, Word-Press, and just about any open source software you can think of.

Now, if there`s little DB programming... like email forms, Logins, and stuff of that nature it all stays in house including some Joomla, and Zen Carts... Now for a customized approach, then I use them as a back up.

Currently, I am able to deliver a fully customized ZEN CART, JOOMLA, WORDPRESS or Social Networking web site within 1 month. Which is very fast... I create the templates, the layout XHTML and CSS and they integrate all the components... (60 % involvement)

Before it would take me close to 1 1/2 months to do everything, and this is with 3 years experience on OSCommerce, Joomla (mambo), and Zen Cart... and if you want to talk about affordability, and profitability then I think if you`re going to offer dirt cheap web design, then you should consider outsourcing... Dirt Cheap Programming is still keeping it at $1,500.00 to start..

If you`re offering cheaper programming than that... then.... believe me, customers will come to you... but you will overwhelm youself in the long run and your products (services) will loose their Quality.

You can still charge high margins for the less fortunate business owners, even if you have to create a payment plan for them "This is called flexibility" and believe me... If you charge a customer 1500 for a web site, and you put them on a flexible payment plan, lets say... $500 per month... and you have 10 customers... you are bringing in  $5,000.00 every month for the next 3 months... That`s enough time to seek more customers and keep your income flowing steadily. all year long...
Do the math.... Being able to offer affordable web design doesn`t mean... to slave drive yourself, it means to learn how to play with your money and prices...

Even if you pay an over seas company $400.00 bucks... in India that is 38 india bucks for every dollar... so if you pay them $400 that translates to: $12,000 India Bucka-roos...
and if you give them 10 of your projects? Come on how much are they making? per month?
They are happy, I am happy, my customers are happy... Everyone is happy...




-------------------------

Edgar Monroy
Web Developer / Owner / Consultant
When starting your own business the need to "know-how" is greater than money!
http://www.nuevolution.net