Forums: Discussions for entrepreneurs and small business.

Hi all,

My goal with my company Effective Websites is to create a company that`s nationally known for creating high-quality websites.  If websites were cars, I want to be making Lexus`s. (spelling?)  Not necessarily going for top-of-the-line elitist sites, but not generic cheap ones either.  I`m focusing on providing services to small or medium businesses that would like to hire an outside person to take care of their website design, maintenance and marketing.

Another aspect of my company is that I push marketing methods along with design and maintenance.  If a website is to be effective, people have to know about it.  I also will be offering testing of different page elements and analysis of visitor behavior.

The purpose of my website is to acquaint visitors with my services, start creating a postive relationship with them through offering free information/products and having a friendly tone, and to spur them to contact us about our services.  I plan to do marketing offline as well as online, but offline efforts will also direct people to learn more about the company through the website.

I started out with the design idea and copy for the home page that you see here: www.effective-websites.com.  Several people here on Startup Nation didn`t like it though--didn`t think it was effective, so I redid the design and text here: www.effective-websites.com/newdesign.html.  But I didn`t like that one as much as the original one, so I combined elements from the two that I liked best and came up with this: www.effective-websites.com/combodesign.html. 

A few of the links on the second two pages don`t go anywhere yet.  I wanted to get some feedback on what I had here before I made the new pages. 

Also, the top link button (Services) on the third design has a rollover effect, as an example.  I also would like opinions on that before I do the same for the others.

The main questions I would like answered are: does the design of this page make you feel that I would do a good job designing your website?  And does the text lead you toward sending information about your company, or are there too many ideas?  Suggestions for improvement are welcome.

Also, if you visit the other pages on the website and anything jumps out at you as needing to be fixed, I`d like to hear about that, too.  (Except the design.  Whatever design I go with on the home page will be carried over to the other pages.)

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EFFECTIVE WEBSITES
when results matter

www.effective-websites.com

Hi Danae,

I personally liked your style. It is a bit chatty, but so am I.  I felt very comfortable. I liked that you are working to try more products and report on your findings, while allowing me to explore them for myself.

Used the buttons to navigate without problems.I couldn`t find the rollover button?? Tried moving my mouse around but nothing happened.

Thought the look was professional, good info without being overloaded. I did take the time to see more, most of the more came from sources other than you but it was good info. Prices didn`t blow me out of the water. You made it clear that you could work with budget concerns of the new startup.

Deb

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"If you`ve got a frog to swallow, don`t look at it too long. And if you`ve got more than one to swallow, swallow the biggest one first"--Danny Cox

I am probably a bad one to answer this because I`m so picky, but ..

The problem is calling it effective design because it attracts more customers ... but I am not particularly attracted by it. There`s a lot of words, it seems a little plain ... I don`t know, it`s hard to put my finger on it, because I`m not a designer.

I am a developer though, and the tables all over the page are really bugging me.

My comment has nothing to do with your content. Purely on style alone,
it looks very dated. If your target market is of people with more
discerning tastes (not top-of-the-line elitists I understand), you still need
to work on your image. That border is so 1995 computer graphics, as is
the typestyle (drop shadow and all) of your site name. Mainly the border
though, looks very amateurish and old-fashioned, as far as websites go.
The pages lack of visual flow. The colors don`t aid in navigation or
display of information. Basically, it reeks of poor design. I don`t mean to
sound harsh and perhaps you`re not a designer. I would recommend
working with a designer, especially given the core of your business being
effective websites. I`m not saying you don`t have the knowledge or skills
to make websites better but it doesn`t show in your own, simply because
of design. I find most people in web development are not designers as
their focus is on the technical and theoretical. When those skills are
complimented by good design, a website is very effective.

Deb--my best friend says my website sounds very chatty, too.  I want to stay far away from the jargon-filled "corporate tone" websites that so often threaten to put me to sleep.  I don`t know if I need to find a medium place--if the chatty tone is a problem or just different.  Guess that`s something to test.

Nikole--I don`t mind you being picky.  Are there too many words?  Does the amount of text discourage you from reading it?  You said it seems plain.  I suppose it is, compared to your website`s graphics (I`ve seen yours a few times), but then Google`s website is plain, too. :)  Not saying I`m Google, but plain is not necessarily bad.  What I need to figure out is what amount of plainness or graphic intensity actually works well for communicating my message.

As for tables--do you like everything to be in CSS?  I did that for my first design, but it was overwhelming to me to try to make it adjustable width with my border, so I switched to tables for the combo design.  I also did the "new design" (second one) with tables because I wanted to do it quickly.  I`ve worked with tables for a lot longer, and I usually like to combine CSS and tables for layout, using whatever works.  Perhaps you think this is sacrilege!   

(I do want to tell you, though, that after reading some of your posts here about validating HTML, I actually worked to validate a sample design I made, and started on validating my combo page design.  I hit a snag with the DOCTYPE inclusion messing up my style sheet, so I dropped it, but it was interesting.)

Steve--you had a lot of thoughts.  I found it interesting that you think the border looks old-fashioned.  I don`t remember ever seeing something like that before--borders, of course, but not embossed borders in two colors.  Anyway, I will see what other people say, and consider your thoughts as well.  Did you like the second design (www.effective-websites.com/newdesign.html) better?  It didn`t have the all-around border.

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EFFECTIVE WEBSITES
when results matter

www.effective-websites.com

Here are the problems with your border.

Execution. It is poorly made. The rounded corners have rough, pixelated
edges indicative of graphics limitations from years ago. Also, the color
between the corner images and the sections of length don`t match and
therefore the "seams" show. Also, the widths vary for no reason that has
anything to do with design principals. For example, the blue border has a
heavily weighted top and the inner gray border is narrower on the left
than right. Why?

It looks dated. In response to me saying it looks old-fashioned, you say
you "don`t remember ever seeing something like that before--borders, of
course, but not embossed borders in two colors". This is hard to explain
but just because it is embossed and two-toned, doesn`t mean it is fresh
and contemporary. In fact, rounded corners are in. So is the 3-D look.
But that`s like saying that baggy old jeans are in because people still wear
jeans. Your borders simply don`t reflect what is current in digital design.
They do look like what was being done 10 years ago when simple 3-D
modeling was cool. It`s much more sophisticated now. If you are going
to put a design element in your website, choose it wisely.

And there are reasons why you don`t see many borders at all. It feels
limiting when it comes to theories of design. Web design is seen as a
dynamic medium, where flexibility is embraced. The border restricts that.
Now you may be thinking: but the browser window is a border and
besides, my border adapts along with it. Here`s the difference. The
browser window is like a canvas and your border is a design element on
it. I`m not talking about how your border technically works. I`m talking
about the way design influences the viewer, emotionally and otherwise,
and how it relates to current trends on the web.

Do I like your second site version better without the border? I suppose I
do but I still don`t think it`s very good. It looks very standard and boring
which I believe you feel as well, which is why you made the third version.
But the 1995 border is not the answer.

And why is the W in "Effective Websites" in bold while the rest is not?
These are the kinds of details that your Lexus-driving target market may
notice.

Steve - You put it better than I did. You sound like my artist in your comments ... he`s always saying how something is pixelated or the kerning is off or the typography needs work. This is why I gladly hand these things over to him so I never have to think about it. 

Danae - Yes I do everything entirely in CSS. I have very strong beliefs on this ... it`s the foundation of our company. I know most people don`t know much about the difference though, but I see your site and I know it`s all in tables without even looking at the code.
The key in your statement is you are going with what you`ve been doing for a while. I think this holds in your design too. Your code and your design are both from about the same year. As my general rule of thumb, if I find that I am doing something over and over again ... it`s probably time to try something new and grow. That`s how it works with the web.
FWIW if you`re combining CSS with tables, you might as well not bother and stick to HTML 4.0. There`s really no point of using CSS unless you`re up to XHTML.

Yes, I agree with everything NIKOLE has to say. I don`t know what you mean by effective... What is effective? Your designs?

Ok here`s the deal... Im not sure Im feeling the design personally, since Im a designer and developer. If you`d ask me.... I don`t think you are a lexus at this point, you`re designs are way to simple. I wouldn`t consider it to be a LEXUS  design per say....

You are more at a Cabriolet, or Rabbit status right now. Here is why... Yes very Chatty... No proof of your work... and too many tables and stuff that could have been done with div tags.

Put it like this, when you are able to create a full web site in div tags and css, then I will give you your LEXUS emblem to hang around your neck like the beasty boys... remember the old VW sign on a chain?
Till then... the learning curb is definitely long...
SMILE

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Edgar Monroy
Web Developer / Owner / Consultant
When starting your own business the need to "know-how" is greater than money!
http://www.nuevolution.net

NIKOLE!!! YES!!! CSS is the way to go... I just created a full web site in Division tags and CSS... It was a challenge but you know what, it downloads faster and I can shut the division tags off and on whenever the customer clicks on items. This is good when you are creating forms..
NIKOLE, How busy are you? would you like to collaborate on a few projects together?

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Edgar Monroy
Web Developer / Owner / Consultant
When starting your own business the need to "know-how" is greater than money!
http://www.nuevolution.net

Hi, just a note, the first version WAS done all in CSS.  Well, I take that back, actually the form isn`t, but that`s because I was in a hurry.  That`s a challenge I set for myself when originally designing this thing, to see if I could do the layout all in CSS.  And (except for the form fields) I did. 

Steve, I appreciated your detailed post.  A few notes--The thick top border was a whim, but I`ve been thinking of redoing it.  The gray borders on the sides are the same width, I believe, but they may appear different because of the angle of light on the entire thing.  The W in Websites is not supposed to be bold.  It may just be the way it comes out in that typeface, but I`ll double check.  I haven`t seen any color "seams" on any of the monitors I`ve used, so it`s probably something with the way yours displays it.  Not sure what to do about that.

Good point about the border.  I hadn`t really thought about what website borders "mean." 

I`m still at a loss about what the design SHOULD look like, if not these.  I guess I`ll keep mulling it over.


-------------------------

EFFECTIVE WEBSITES
when results matter

www.effective-websites.com