Forums: Discussions for entrepreneurs and small business.

I believe one of my questions seems to have been overlooked,

"What is the final arbiter of "good copy", the consensus of "knowlegable professionals" or $$$ generated from the same copy in the open market place?"

Point is, there "good" copy that conforms to generally accepted guidelines, and then there is effective copy, as measured by $$$ generated by that copy.

Being in business, that`s the number I`m interested in, not being graded on style criteria, but on performance.  One of your links actually touched on this when they did a comparison of ROI for a short and a long copy on some test website.  Their findings seemed to support long copy, but with the disclaimer that the copy should fit the buying objectives of the target audience, i.e. commodity products need short, concise informative copy to enable the reader to get enough pertinent information quickly to make a purchase decision and move on.  A large, complex purchase decision needs a lot of good copy that is more consultative in its approach.

That`s my quick and dirty summation of what I`ve seen. 

BTW, when I said sloppy, I was referring to the appearance of the copy, not the content.

 

I think the problem here is the age-old question (problem) of quantifying Art.

Good copy is an art. It stimulates "something" in human minds. What`s the something? Without knowing, there`s no real way to define good or bad copy.

In fact, good and bad are moral judgements. Yes, we use the terms generally to mean high or low quality, useful or not, and all sorts of other evaluations having little to do with morality.

Copy can be effective or not, literate or not, interesting or not, understandable or not, and all kinds of other "either/or" comparisons. So let`s keep general context one thing, and absolute and explicit context separate.

Because "good and bad" have so few explanations and definitions lying around, people get tired trying to organize what the words mean. It seems an endless circle of contradiction and confusion, so they just give up. "I`ll know it when I see it," they say.

Is that the way to go through life? Should we just accept that all written material is excellent, interesting, helpful, stimulating, useful, and compelling? Or should we go the other way, saying that whatever written material we encounter is meaningless, indecipherable, random, and useless?

I`ll try to answer your question and I`ll include a few tips on finance while I`m at it. Copywriting does not generate money; it`s either an expense or an investment depending on your perspective. Exchange generates money. [ Generally, an illiquid asset such as a product is exchanged for a liquid asset such as cash. It can be hard to convince people to part with liquid assets because liquid assets are easily convertible. Whereas it`s difficult to convert something you buy into liquid assets without taking a loss. ] Copywriting is not a magic bullet. It`s a single variable in a complex system. Good copywriting helps you communicate clearly ... or speak in terms a prospect can understand ... but it won`t sell a product no one wants to buy and it won`t help ROI in a poorly managed business. Is that clear enough?

"Point is, there "good" copy that conforms to generally accepted guidelines, and then there is effective copy, as measured by $$$ generated by that copy."

I think you might benefit from some basic financial education ... or perhaps brushing up if you`re already educated. Copy does not generate ROI except in the "small picture". In the big picture, where ROI is most important ... with respect to say ... profitability ... copywriting contributes something but precisely measuring that ROI is probably difficult.

Let`s say you run one ten-word advertisment with good copywriting. You sell $100,000 worth of product to people who see your advertisment. Do you say that the advertisement generated $10,000 per word minus cost to advertise? What about the other variables such as product development? Measuring contribution can be very difficult. Maybe it took 2000 decisions to arrive at the point where you could finally sell the product. Do you say that each decision returned $50 minus costs? You can invent any metric you like, and believe me, there are many. Sales/Square Foot. Sales/Store. Sales/Unit. Profit/Unit. I could write about this for days and days and only scratch the surface.

Good copywriting helps you speak clearly, which is critically important in marketing, but won`t necessarily lead to increased sales if the other components in the system are poorly implemented. EX: Good copywriting goes nowhere if no one sees your product because of poor promotion strategy.

I`ll again propose an equation, with elaboration, from a previous post:

Good Copywriting + Good Product + No Distribution = ?

Good Copywriting + Mediocre Product + Distribution = ?

Poor Copywriting + Great Product + Poor Distribution = ?

A business is a complex system full of inter-linked variables/components. Tweaking one component causes changes to the other components. Try evaluating these equations and determine the likely result.

"Being in business, that`s the number I`m interested in, not being graded on style criteria, but on performance."

Sure. I wish the world worked this way too. But that`s like saying "Oh I`d date a person to whom I am not attracted just because the person is nice." EX: Women often don`t want to go out on dates with poorly groomed/dressed men who are "intrinsically good" on the inside. Most of us prefer to see a well-dressed, nicely groomed doctor or dentist. While most of us wish the world was not a popularity contest based on looks and style ... which are extrinsic elements of a person or business ... the world doesn`t always work the way we want, right? The fact is that looks and style do matter and they are linked to ROI in some manner ... but I can`t give you any reliable quantitative method to establish hard numbers. I can tell you that most people won`t pay attention to lengthy marketing material, especially on a landing page. Information competes with information? If you fill a page full of words, which words is the customer supposed to remember? Do you think most people will decide to remember a lot of words just in case?

Great copywriting is about establishing relevance and speaking clearly. These are two of the most important elements of marketing. How does your customer know if your product is relevant if you talk about yourself the whole time? Does bad copywriting help the prospect discover that your product is relevant?

When I wrote the article, I chose to focus on copywriting and avoid a bigger discussion of business because those matters are well outside the scope of copywriting.

p.s. In my opinion, anyone who advocates any particular method as a "magic bullet for business" is probably selling snake oil.

Sorry for the simple approach to the question.  I am in business and really don`t get into the philosophy of copywriting.  Long-term bottom line rules in business. 

I understand all of what you wrote concerning the parameters of copywriting, product, marketing, etc.  Nothing works in a vacuum.

However, with all other parameters being the same, what impact does copy have on the bottom line.  Pick your parameters, good/bad product, good/bad marketing, good/bad CS, good/bad distribution, etc.  All other parameters identical, change only the copy.  What is the effect?

This is an old direct mail marketing approach.  Mail out your marketing piece, but change 1 item on 10% of the mailing, then measure the response.  Does the 10% generate a greater or lesser return than the control group? 

I do this when I set up for trade shows.  Each show I change one item and then measure response.  This is how I improve my marketing efforts.  That is where this is going.  Long/short copy?  Simple.

 

I`d think it`s pretty simple to test for good or bad copywriting. Use one form, see how many customers you get. Use the other form and see how many customers you get.

The down side would be that you might be getting an up or down number of customers simply because the moon changed, the economy burped, or the oxygen level in some area increased. But ordinarily, when some abstraction is difficult to prove, and as Cartess often says, "test it." The empiric observations should go a long way to demonstrating what`s good or bad, useful or not. Right?

Yep, that`s what I`ve found.  CookieMonster referenced a few websites that addressed this issue to some extent, employing the same methodology. 

I`ve seen too many "copywriting experts" hold to short copy, regardless and I was wondering where other independent research results could be had.

My experience has been long works very well.

Okay, so you prefer long copy. Go ahead and use long copy.

Throughout this discussion I watched you attempt to hide your disagreement with my ideas ... when you should have simply said "I disagree and I want to use long copy." I have to be honest here. I don`t think you`re really interested in research at all; you`re interested in finding research that supports your beliefs. [This is called bias by the way.] There`s nothing wrong with being biased but please don`t come here and pretend that you`re actually interested in both sides of the coin. It makes you look intellectually dishonest and it wastes my time, Craig`s time, and your own, with a discussion that`s never going to go anywhere.

Saying that too many copywriting experts "hold to short copy" is like saying "bankers are too responsible when they refuse to make bad loans", or "doctors are too cautious when they refuse to prescribe the wrong treatment". Do you want professional irresponsibility instead? Short copy on a web site ... as my article discusses ... is better communication strategy given the" four second rule". Using short copy does not preclude the use of long copy in an article or whitepaper ... as my article also states.

It`s very well understood that the attention span of the average consumer is becoming incredibly short. Everyone who works in marketing is aware of this trend. It`s been happening for the last two or maybe three decades. But people like Al Ries, Jack Trout, and Jakob Nielsen ... well ... what do they know compared to you? Obviously not much.

p.s. If you`re really interested in the bottom line, you probably know that "bias" is rarely good for profits. Give that some thought.

CookieMonster,

OK, I DISAGREE.

For wasting your time, CraigL`s time and anyone else who is bored by reading my posts, I apologize. The only thing I disagree with is your jumping to conclusions, projecting intent and then preaching about it. 

Look, you gave some very good links with information that pretty much cut across the board. Short copy, long copy, but intelligently applied based on one`s understanding of the intended client.  Unfortunately for me, no "silver bullet". I am highly analytical.  I will disect, study and figure things out on my own if I have to and I don`t mind asking all kinds of questions, even if you think they are a waste of time.

What`s behind my queries is that I`ve been getting conflicting information from "experts" (none from this forum) both in print as well as in discussions about what copy style should be used.  I`m trying to revamp a couple of web sites and am getting bogged down with copy issues.  In my main business, my average sales cycle is 2 years.  So I`m trying to figure out how to go about improving the message, call to action, etc.  You know, generate more interest and faster/hotter responses in my prospects.

I`ve seen many of your posts and you come across as a purist and very passionate about your chosen profession.  Shouldn`t be any other way.  However, many of your prospective clients (some even people like me) don`t have the inclination, aptitude or time to get into the philosophy of the craft.  You`ve chided other members about their tone, the image they project through these posts.  If you get upset by your perceptions of why someone is asking questions in a forum where this is to be encouraged, then you may need to think about your customer handling procedures as well. 

When I ask for the time, I don`t want to know how to build a watch.  I`ve used this line many times before: Bottom line, I just want it done.  Well, very well. 

I guess I haven`t come across anyone in the field that I would feel confident enough in to create the right copy.  That is because they don`t have the passion or knowlege I have about my chosen business.  And that is why I ask, challenge, confront, ask for proof, show me what works.

Want to help? Feel free.  If you see me or my questions as a waste of time then don`t reply.   

 

I really am not in the mood for a lecture based on the tone of my post. Yes, I have chided other SUN members for their tone or language but only when it involved personal attacks or outright nastiness. There isn`t any outright nastiness in my post, nor is there any form of personal attack. I`ve never chided anyone for giving a harsh critique.

It`s intellectually dishonest for you to come here and ask questions when all you`re looking for is advice that supports the decision you`ve already made. That is bias. What do you want me to say? Should I apologize for your bias or for saying that you are biased? I`ve already made it clear that bias isn`t a character flaw.

Asking questions is never a waste of time ... but asking questions when already disagree is a waste of time because I`m never going to be able to tell you what you want to hear ... and believe me ... I`ve tried.

I`ve written *several* posts in which I made an entirely good faith effort to answer ALL of your questions and provide you with the right information. At some point, it became clear to me that you aren`t really looking for advice at all. Your posts are a continual stream of "thanks but..." even when I provide answers or methods by which answers can be obtained. Even when I say there isn`t necessarily an answer. What I`m trying to say is: I can`t help you. Nothing I say or write has been enough, even though I have provided you with lots and lots of information. You say that you`re not an expert yet you won`t listen to the answers given by experts. Sorry but this is no longer my problem.

You made some remarks about being a potential customer and how I might want to rethink my customer handling procedures. Let me tell you something: you might want to rethink how you treat the people who give you high-quality professional advice and carry the costs out of their own pocket. Got it?

Also, I don`t freelance. I`m not here looking for business. All the help I give is totally free and rendered for the sole purpose of helping people. There is no financial gain for me. My participation here is a small repayment for good turns I`ve experienced in my life. No strings attached.