Forums: Discussions for entrepreneurs and small business.

How "hard" it is means very little to me.  It`s not that "hard" to exercise for 30 minutes every day or brush my teeth twice per day.  I should do it.  I don`t want the gubment forcing me.  A law that forces business to be "considerate" is the worst type of all.

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James Lindon, Ph.D. Patent Attorney
Lindon & Lindon, LLC
Cleveland, Ohio
Patents, Trademarks, Copyrights, Pharmacy Law, Litigation
[this is not legal advice - provided for discussion only]
Intellectual Property for the Individual and Small Business: Identify, Protect, Enforce, Defend.
"Fools rush in where angels fear to tread."
http://www.LindonLaw.com

99% of websites are poorly coded and obsolete.

Jeffrey Zeldman`s book "Designing with web standards" is a good read.  It`s got a chapter directed especially for the "Rush Limbaugh" types on here as cookiemonster put it. At least go to the book store and skim through that chapter. You might understand how ignorant some if you are starting to sound.

Cookiemonster hit the nail on the head.  It`s way to easy for us without disabilities to brush off those with them. If all of a sudden I lost my sight, or arms, I would be pretty pissed I can`t find my way onto myspace to keep in touch with my friends.

It`s not being "considerate", James, it`s about doing what makes sense for your business. An accessible site is not only going to get more sales by reaching disabled people, it`s going to keep the overall cost of future developments for your site down.

The W3C and the Web Standards Project have setup guidelines that reduce the cost and complexity of site creation and ensures easy access for all. All the gov`t is doing is starting to enforce those guidelines, which is a GOOD thing.

I`m sure you will agree that great design and innovation stem from restrictions.

Does anybody see anything strange about the gubment [or any entity] using FORCE to coerce people to do things which "make sense" in running a private business?

To the extent that great design and innovation stem from restrictions, they stem from the restrictions we choose on our own after being convinced of value of those restrictions - not those that are jammed down our throats no matter how much those restrictions "make sense" to a law maker.  If you don`t like the non-compliant websites or brick and mortar locations, why not just vote with your feet/wheelchair?  I will concede that it might be cool in having gubment websites, courthouses, and the like able to be used by "everybody" - but why FORCE private businesses?  You LIKE TO BE FORCED??

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James Lindon, Ph.D. Patent Attorney
Lindon & Lindon, LLC
Cleveland, Ohio
Patents, Trademarks, Copyrights, Pharmacy Law, Litigation
[this is not legal advice - provided for discussion only]
Intellectual Property for the Individual and Small Business: Identify, Protect, Enforce, Defend.
"Fools rush in where angels fear to tread."
http://www.LindonLaw.com

  CookieMonster!!!

As much as I would like to see all sites be accessible to all people...the reality is you can`t fix everything for EVERYONE! Not only that but as was mentioned before...you definitely should be allowed to make stupid decisions IF those decisions do not in anyway harm someone physically. Now...that said...if you are a government entity...you better be compliant and accessible...you stand FOR THE PEOPLE...and that means all of them! As for private companies...common sense says you should be accessible...just like common sense says that if you don`t put a ramp in front of your store...you are likely going to lose quite a few customers. Provided that is now mandated by law...but even if the law WASN`T in place...COMMON SENSE should step in. Unfortunately, as CookieMonster pointed out in not so many words...common sense seems to have escaped some people and thus they are missing the boat.

Twighlight put it perfectly.....take a minute and step back and think about how you might feel or how frustrated and upset you might be if you lost your sight or your arms tomorrow!? Regardless of whether or not you can get on MySpace to talk with your friends...Can you even get on your OWN SITE to upgrade, change or evaluate!? Would your site be accessible to YOU!!!???

We could all very easily walk around pretending that at some point we won`t hit old age and potentially lose our sight or the use of our bodies as we know it. We could all pretend that we are indistructable and that we could NEVER become disabled to the point where this conversation would pertain to us...but the reality is...you aren`t...and eventually you might! Not to mention...COMMON SENSE states that even if you never do...you are turning your back on customers and clients that are!

Craig you argue that the majority of the sites on the web aren`t coded correctly in the first place...WHY is that!?  What are we doing wrong that the majority of this vast internet is so out of sync!? Not to mention....wouldn`t THAT hold us back more than having them all actually coded correctly!?

James...no one likes to be forced to do anything (I for one tend to be very bullheaded when someone tries to force me to do something)...but if we are too self-centered, self-righteous, and lacking in our own common sense to do it on our own...then maybe it is time that someone step in and tell us where to shove our stubborness! Maybe we NEED the swift kick in the pants to get us moving in the right direction!? Do we need to be coddled and handheld...I would love to be able to say no to that question...but the American people haven`t exactly shown their ability to make common sense decisions on their own in the past! Sometimes (more often than not) we need some type of nudge to get us moving in the right direction. We have seen those nudges in our history before (lady sits down on bus, man has a dream, flower in a rifle, gov`t passes ADA, etc etc etc). We wouldn`t have needed the ADA in the first place if people had been making the common sense decisions all along to include that part of our society into our normal everyday lives! Instead we have spent years trying to pretend they don`t exist, looking the other way, attempting to phase them out...but you have to admit 50+ million people (even disabled ones) can be a pretty loud voice to be reckoned with...and they aren`t going to go away just because we don`t make the decision to make our website accessible...but your website just might!

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Leah Tucker

I guess you are right.  Would somebody please send somebody over to my office with a gun and tell me how to run my business?  Wow.  If the business owners believe that compliant wesites ARE such common sense, they won`t need to be forced to make the websites compliant, now will they they?  Why not try to show them something that they will do voluntarily instead of FORCE them?

We should all wear the clothes, sell the products, eat the food, say the words, listen to the music, read the books, build the websites, and watch the movies that law makers think make sense.  You are drinking, and apparently have been drinking, the Kool Aid, my friend.

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James Lindon, Ph.D. Patent Attorney
Lindon & Lindon, LLC
Cleveland, Ohio
Patents, Trademarks, Copyrights, Pharmacy Law, Litigation
[this is not legal advice - provided for discussion only]
Intellectual Property for the Individual and Small Business: Identify, Protect, Enforce, Defend.
"Fools rush in where angels fear to tread."
http://www.LindonLaw.com

I have a question...why is legislation always a black and white issue? (This is a serious question...not rehtorical!)

As I mentioned before...I don`t think anyone should hold a gun to your head and MAKE you be accessible...but in the same breath...since most people don`t use a lot of common sense...why isn`t there a place for a legislative model that would help you see the light to a greater future for the community AND your business!? I by no means want someone sticking a gun to my head and telling me I need to comply (Resistance is futile!!!). But if I am not seeing it...and if the public around me is not leading by example for me to see it...then why not have our government show us the way...aren`t they suppose to be our "leaders"? How many people had figured out that it was good business to put a ramp in front of your store before the ADA came in and said you needed a ramp in front of your store!?

Is there no middle ground on any of this!? Is it...and will it always be...force or no clue!?

You say you don`t want to be forced...but until this discussion and hearing about the lawsuit on regarding Target...had you considered acccessibility for your website? If you had, how did you come to realize it might be an issue (or not an issue)? Did you see other sites becoming accessible? Did your web developer point out that you should consider accessiblity? 

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Leah Tucker

Law is about the use of force.  Laws are not helpful suggestions; they are a set of standards which, if not met, allow the use of force to compel compliance with the standards.  That`s what a law is.  I have not heard anybody argue that it is a good idea to intentionally make a website that is not easy for the ADA crowd to use - have you? 

Law is black and white in that the guilty are labeled as such and punished accordingly.  The guilty get punished and the not guilty don’t when the law works – that’s pretty black and white.  Yes vs. no.  If you are found bringing heroin in your luggage at the airport, they don`t simply suggest that you consider not doing it again in the future.  They take it from you by force.  They put you in a room and [again, by force] don`t allow you to come out until they are ready to let you out.  You may or may not agree with that practice but there is no real dispute that the standard is being enforced by the use of force, is there?

I have no problem with somebody complaining about a website and suggesting that it be improved.  I have a problem with somebody FORCING the website owner to comply with a standard that makes the website "easy enough" to use.

Some of you like to be forced - I get it.

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James Lindon, Ph.D. Patent Attorney
Lindon & Lindon, LLC
Cleveland, Ohio
Patents, Trademarks, Copyrights, Pharmacy Law, Litigation
[this is not legal advice - provided for discussion only]
Intellectual Property for the Individual and Small Business: Identify, Protect, Enforce, Defend.
"Fools rush in where angels fear to tread."
http://www.LindonLaw.com

laws are not models.

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James Lindon, Ph.D. Patent Attorney
Lindon & Lindon, LLC
Cleveland, Ohio
Patents, Trademarks, Copyrights, Pharmacy Law, Litigation
[this is not legal advice - provided for discussion only]
Intellectual Property for the Individual and Small Business: Identify, Protect, Enforce, Defend.
"Fools rush in where angels fear to tread."
http://www.LindonLaw.com

One of my best friends had a younger brother who was afflicted with muscular dystrophy. He was wheelchair bound between the ages of about 12-18.

I remember the difficulties experienced by his mother who often needed to take him to the shops, as he couldn`t be left alone ... and certainly he couldn`t simply be left at home all the time. Yes, some businesses were thoughtful ... but some weren`t.

I`ll reiterate my point: if every business owner or provider of public accomodation were considerate, laws would not be required. Maybe if every business owner made a few changes when someone walked in and said "hey, I can`t get my son`s wheelchair over the curb".

Should a business be forced to make their brick and mortar location or web location accessible to the disabled? How would you feel if a business said "we don`t serve people with wheelchairs"? That would be clear discrimination. Having an inaccessible premises is the same thing. We`re not talking about a business completely retooling its entire operations here.

This is basic human rights 101.

I would not like to deal with businesses that were not considerate.  I don`t do business with businesses that are not considerate.  I let them know and suggest they voluntarily become more considerate.  If there are lots of other people that do the same, the business will go out of business or become more considerate.

I would not take over a gun [or advocate for a law that allowed the use of a gun] and FORCE them to become more considerate.  Either a) be considerate, or b) get forced to become more considerate - what a "choice" to give a business owner in the freedom loving USA!

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James Lindon, Ph.D. Patent Attorney
Lindon & Lindon, LLC
Cleveland, Ohio
Patents, Trademarks, Copyrights, Pharmacy Law, Litigation
[this is not legal advice - provided for discussion only]
Intellectual Property for the Individual and Small Business: Identify, Protect, Enforce, Defend.
"Fools rush in where angels fear to tread."
http://www.LindonLaw.com