Forums: Discussions for entrepreneurs and small business.

Sorry if some of my posts appear blunt. I have been in a rush through the last 2 posts and didn`t have time to re-read.

The fact that you have seen $1500 sites that where compliant is not really a huge deal. The less the site does the easier it is to be compliant. Also, who tested the compliance? I have been in security for a while and have seen people do unethical things to pass compliance. It`s one of those things that is only a big deal if you get caught.

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SecurityDistro Arm Your Toolbox

Your site looks pretty functional the way it is. It sounds like you`re looking for someone to do some updates, which will be quoted by the hour based on their closest estimate of the project. Unless, of course, you`re just itching for a new look, which is cool. Then again, if you do that, you really need to match the look and feel to signage, etc., which you may not be prepared to do right now.

Great web design really is what others have said - you know it when you see it.

 I reviewed about 4 firms and only called one. My research was done by looking at their client work. Web firms have a certain look and feel to their work, and my final choice, Alter Imaging, was by no means the cheapest, but they `got it` right away and hit it out of the ballpark for my target audience.

I think that`s the issue - how refined is your audience? I know this is a generalization, but payday loans tend to fall into the lower demographic tiers. I know, I know, you make loans to country music superstars everyday, etc., etc.

But once they are in, your money is made on them rolling the loans over, which suggests a lower income population. Then again, the state of Tennessee could outlaw your business altogether this year, like they did in NC, making this whole discussion mute. Since you are so local - can you even legally make a payday loan to someone in a state where payday loans are illegal according to state banking regulations? - you may be overthinking the need to fancy up the site. Really, it looks pretty good right now.

I`d be focusing on a solid PPC campaign during dayparts like 8-5pm on Google, or links from complimentary sites (mobile homes, car dealerships, etc). People in your target do lots of their web searching during work hours where there is a highspeed connection - not like it`s possible they might have one at home also - again, these are generalizations - so being in front of them when they search is key. Google added a daypart feature where you can target sponsored links during certain timeframes, just like a radio or TV buy.

I guess the bigger question might be, `how are you getting them to your site, anyway?`. It`s the old `if a website falls in the forest, does it make a noise` thing. Geez, I just sounded like CraigL!

I`m with BrandAlchemy on your site. I was looking through it and I think that it is very functional. If you are rebranding then you may want to look at an upgrade instead of a total rework. Make sure that you are on the latest Joomla (1.0.12) , components, modules, and try to meet compliance regulations in case something happens. Test the backup solution, security, etc...

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SecurityDistro Arm Your Toolbox

efoozle/BrandAlchemy - I appreciate both of your comments.

A couple things:  The site redesign is part of  a corporate re-branding / restructure.  I think the website we have now works but most likely will not match, from a UI perspective, the new colors / logo and image we are going for.

I think though that we have gotten off topic, which is mostly my fault.  The question here is how to objectively determine a sites worth.

BrandAlchemy - I understand a web portfolio will tell me a great deal about the quality of work a company does but it doesn`t do much for saying whether your website for example should be approx worth $2-5K or 10-15K.  And there seems no way to actually place a semi-accurate number on it.

efoozle - When I`m referring to standards based site I mean the websites code (think XHTML vs HTML).  Here are a couple more answers:
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How much hand holding do you need?
>> Can you pin down what you are looking for?  It would basically be having a graphic designer produce a new "image" and then having the web programmer slice it up to html.  Moving the copy over and integrating google maps, and the online apps (basically copy paste).  There is no coding outside of HTML.  Plus the flash animation (say 5 to pin an exact number) and say 15 new images that would need to be placed somewhere on the site (or included in one of those flash animations).

What kind of support do you want?
>> We have people in house to edit the site.  I`m unclear how this would effect the cost to design the site in the first place though unless your including money for future support into the cost of the site redesign.

Do you have scope of work that cover all aspects of the site?
>> Yes the answer is no but mostly because I`m not sure what your asking for.  "The information you posted is very vague" - I understand what your saying and yet don`t know what exactly your looking for.  For example besides hand sketches of the desired site (or a list of sites I like), demographic information (as I see it), and a credit card number I`m not sure what else I could provide (no DNA samples please  ).

Here are some things to think about.

- 10-12 Page Site
    1. Is this content already created?
 >> Yes. See advancepayday.biz
    2. Am I migrating it or you?
>> You.

- Copy Provided
  
- Small flash animation(s) for scrolling images / possible header
    1. How many? How  small? Where? What will they look like?
>> Say 5 to pin a #.
- We currently have 3 interactive sections of the site:
    - Corporate Site (no redesign needed - to be honest we don`t really care what it looks like as long as it functions) - which is a joomla installation.
    1. No redesign? Do I need to intgrate it?
>> No.
    2. If this site gets hacked because your Joomla is outdated are you going to     point the finger at me? ( Liability )
>> No we will maintain and accept liability.
    - Online employment application - basically code stays as is but will need to be integrated to current site.
    1. Basically? Is it being changed?
>> Yes but by internal staff.
    - Google Maps - just integrated to new site.
     2. Copy current to new. Got it.

    - Online application - Right now the site has an "online application" for payday advances but all it really does is email a staff member who then forwards it to the appropriate store.
 
  1. This should be done in a more secure fashion.
>> There is nothing sensitive being sent.
- We would like the new version to be standards compliant but this isn`t a "requirement".
    1. Do we have to do the security audit?
>> See above XHTML vs HTML.  But to answer the question no we would be hiring in a web developer compacity not as a security consultant.
    2. Will you sign off that we are not accountable?
>> Yes.

- Any and all SEO related tags / structure should be implemented.
    1. Are we talking about meta tags?
>> Yes and SEF URLS.
    2. What keywords should get people to your site?
>> I can provide tags but as a developer wouldn`t this fall somewhat under your (or a web dev companies) domain.

How much of the current site do you actually want to keep?
>> none but the joomla install (which I can move), google maps, and both online apps.
Do you want to stick with Joomla?
>> Please note joomla is ONLY used for the corporate version which you would not touch as you would be redesigning the "consumer" version.
Is this a complete redesign or really just and upgrade/update?
>> Redesign in the sense that the graphic structure would need to be updated to include the new corporate colors etc...

I don`t mean to sound argumentative but my point is that a consumer has absolutely no way of objectively determining what a site should cost.  So he/she could go brag to his/her golfing buddies about his new website that only cost him 20K when it should have cost him 5K.  A computer is a complex thing but if you make a apples to apples comparison across vendors you will see that the prices don`t wildly flucuate based on whose selling it.  Thanks again.





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Advance Payday Website

I want to reiterate that I made some assumptions on your customer audience, but they are not judgmental on their position in life. We all run into financial problems from time to time; I even considered a title loan once to fund Google Adwords...  Then, on Valentine`s Day, I swerved to avoid a squirrel and totaled my car by hitting a telephone pole. While that makes me a hero in the squirrel community, it pretty much takes the loan option off the table. Not like Valentine`s Day was going to suck enough already... (< that`s me after the airbags deployed)

On my point about searches, start asking people not just how they found you, but when and where. You may be surprised to find out it`s at work during the day. Searches on Monster.com, for example, always spike on Mondays and Tuesdays. I guess that`s when people really get fed up with their jobs!

A site like Yellowpages.com or Superpages.com also does better than the print versions these days as well, and they have both launched PPC campaigns.

Maybe Startup Nation should start buying banners on Monster.com for people tired of working for the man, or woman, whichever the case may be.

Anyway, just wanted to clarify that there`s nothing wrong with seeking a payday loan. I know that your industry is under fire for usury when the loan is rolled over, but there is certainly nothing wrong with providing this service.

Back to your website, it looks great.

Advance PayDay,

It seems the applications part of your site are costs that you need to consider. Building those and making them secure with SSL, etc may constitute a decent amount of the total cost.

A good web firm should do both the design and the coding in-house, or however they choose to source out the coding. In other words, you are looking for one shop, not two, if I understand you correctly.

Given a rebranding initiative (I know a little about that ), the design will drive the content and the functionality. Like you said, no personal info is being sent, like SS#`s, since I assume you guys don`t pull credit reports anyway.

My guess? $7500-$10,000 sounds about right. Take a look at my site - www.brandcounselllc.com. The new logo came from Logoworks ($749), and the site with one application (news and information uploads) came to $3800, with a year`s colocated hosting at one of the finest facilities on the east coast.  I wrote all of the content and there was nothing prior.

My web firm is noted at the bottom of my site. They also did the NC Lottery site and many others that look great and convert very well. I`d be happy to make an introduction. But regardless of who you use, a few things I looked for:

* Stellar client work
* Interactive feel with the account management team and the designers
* Solid process and timelines that were met
* No surprises
* Very business-savvy and customer-service oriented
* Not snooty or overly "we want all creative control" types

Business owners, in my opinion, shouldn`t even need to know what HTML stands for, anyway. God knows your customers could care less. As for in-house people mucking with the site once it`s up, that`s where mismatched fonts and stuff come in. It should be as turnkey as possible, with reasonable hourly rates ($100 per hour is mine) for updates and fine-tuning.

One final note: other than a kick-off meeting, which an out-of-town firm should have no problem with generally, all of my work was done via phone calls and emails.

Well here`s the catch. The contractor sets his rate according to "industry norms" not according to his needs. But one makes more a profit than another by cutting corners ... say, using cheaper materials or hiring illegal labor. And you aren`t going to know how good that job really was until the next big earthquake.

Some people inflate their rates. Some people inflate their worth. (I posted something a while back, an article that basically said that the more incompetent you were at something, the less you were able to judge your competence in it as compared to your peers. Maybe this is the case here too.) Some people have just been preying on those who don`t know any better to hire someone better, so they just keep making the same crap over and over.

I didn`t read all your specifics, but if you have a FT developer on staff who knows all this, why not just rent out the graphic designer? I`ve rented out my artist to other people on a 1099 basis before, I`m sure it`s possible. I mean, if you have one developer, do you need 2? If you were a lead, contacting me, and you already had a developer that you liked enough to pay full time ... I`d just tell you, heck, go with him! Why reinvent the wheel? Just bring in the parts that he can`t do ... like maybe just pay for graphic design and CSS layout. (And to answer your question in my way, you`d be paying about $300-400 per each unique page design for all the graphics, html and CSS.) Then your developer, who knows your product and your company, could put it all together.

Makes more sense to me ... sorry if I just confused you more ...

WHOA. You paid $750 for a LOGO?????

Someone made some serious bank off your project, that`s for sure.

Not at all. I had 5 designers, 13 comps, unlimited revisions, full stationary layouts (business cards, envelopes, letterhead), 500 high quality business cards in full color on 100 lb. stock, excellent customer service.

Logoworks rocks. Remember, I deal in corporate identity all day long, and my clients can spend starting at $10k for work like that. I actually used them as a test for sending some of my clients their direction. Besides, what was I gonna do, run out and get PhotoShop and hope for the best?

My work is corporate identity and branding. I wasn`t about to skimp on my own branding. That would have been just silly.

Besides, I didn`t pay $750. Only $749!

The unlimited revisions thing cracks me up. I mean, how many of those are you ever going to use? "But it said unlimited!!"

I still think it`s on the high side. Do you really need 5 designers to make one logo?

This is back to the original point ... it`s not the price of the thing, it`s the perceived value of it. So if you felt like you got your money`s worth, then you are happy. And if the OP gets his money`s worth, he`s happy too. But that actual dollar amount has little to do with overall satisfaction. And really, in this thread, he can do less than originally planned and still come out with some great results, saving money overall.

5 designers, 13 comps, and unlimited revisions is overkill for most businesses, FWIW. (You may be a special case, I don`t know.) People can get the same package for half the price (from me or anyone else) and still be just as satisfied with it.